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(Message inbox:154) Return-Path: appel@erzo.berkeley.edu Delivery-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 00:53:22 -0800 Received: from localhost (uucp@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.4/PHILMAIL-1.10) with UUCP id AAA10321 for appel@soda.berkeley.edu; Mon, 29 Nov 1993 00:52:07 -0800 Received: from localhost by erzo.berkeley.edu (8.3/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.1) id BAA02676; Mon, 29 Nov 1993 01:28:07 -0800 Resent-Message-Id: <199311290928.BAA02676@erzo.berkeley.edu> Received: from localhost by erzo.berkeley.edu (8.3/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.1) id PAA00583; Sun, 28 Nov 1993 15:52:06 -0800 Received: from Sun.COM (Sun.COM [192.9.9.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.4/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id PAA19818 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1993 15:08:59 -0800 Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26491; Sun, 28 Nov 93 15:07:32 PST Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (isunnl) by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03124; Sun, 28 Nov 93 15:07:19 PST Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA08262; Mon, 29 Nov 93 00:07:05 +0100 Received: from yelm.Holland.Sun.COM by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19775; Mon, 29 Nov 93 00:03:59 +0100 Received: by yelm.Holland.Sun.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA02384; Mon, 29 Nov 93 00:04:15 +0100 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 00:04:15 +0100 Message-Id: <9311282304.AA02384@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM> To: RuneQuest-Digest@glorantha.holland.sun.com From: RuneQuest-Request@glorantha.holland.sun.com Subject: Volume 10, no 3: What is Chaos? Reply-To: RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@glorantha.holland.sun.com Sender: Henk.Langeveld@holland.sun.com Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 19575 Status: O Resent-To: appel@soda.berkeley.edu Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 01:28:05 -0800 Resent-From: Shannon Appel Contents: Antoon Pardon [ed.] What makes one Chaotic? A summary of a discussion on the Daily last summer Editorial: Last summer I asked for guest editors, creating summaries of interesting `threads' on the Daily. With Graeme Willoughby's question on the nature of chaos, this is a good time to dig out the first submission by Antoon Pardon. Sorry Antoon, that I didn't find the time to send this out any sooner... Antoon did the hard work of extracting all relevant parts to the discussion. I cut off the discussion at the end on the reusability of Sever Spirit, and did some additional work on lay-out. Announcement: Appended, in two separate files, comes the rest of the ASCII maps as created by Joerg Baumgartner. Two files of approx. 20k each. Henk -- Submissions for the Daily to: for the Digest: Subscriptions and questions: Me: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM -------------------- From: gharris@jade.tufts.edu (George W. Harris and others) Subject: What Makes One Chaotic? Sender: apardon@vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 16:10:08 MDT GH: gharris@jade.tufts.edu (George W. Harris) GL: gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell) DG: dagibbs@quantum.qnx.com (David Gibbs) BB: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski) MG: markg@engrg.uwo.ca (Mark Gagnon) DE: dgempey@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (David Gordon Empey) RB: rab112@huxley.anu.edu.au (Rex A Bean) TZ: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder) TL: tsl@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Tim Leask) SG: steveg@arc.ug.eds.com KM: mckinney@vnet.ibm.com (Ken McKinney) SB: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) BM: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) LY: lyle@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu (Lyle Youngblood) PM: trystro!rune (Peter Maranci) ______________________ George W. Harris asked: Okay, we all know what Chaos is, and that there are magical spells and skills that can tell when a(n unilluminated) person is Chaotic. However, one question that remains is, when *is* someone Chaotic? I'm wondering what the opinions of the various Gloranthaphiles on the net are wrt this burning question. So, is something Chaotic when: DG: Anyone (anything) that has a strong tie to the Chaos rune is DG: chaotic. I don't think that is a self-referential definition, it just DG: means you have to decide what indicates a strong tie to the Chaos DG: rune. GH: It has a Chaos feature? GL: Yes. DG: Definitely. BB: Absolutely. TZ: Agreed Chaos feature = Chaos DE: Yes. TL: Yes GH: It is a member of a chaotic race, such as Broos, Scorpion Men or Ogres? GL: I'm not sure: would, say, an Ogre with no Chaos feature and who GL: isn't consciously an initiate of Cacodeamon be Chaotic? As a GM, I'd GL: say no. I think Chaos is a state of mind as well as features: the Ogre GL: above might want to eat people, but then so do trolls. The Cleansed GL: One, the Broo which lost its chaos taint in the Zola Fel, may have once GL: accepted Chaos voluntarily. DG: Yes. All these races give strong ties to the Chaos rune. Similarly any DG: troll will be strongly tied to the Darkness rune. DG In another DG: article, somebody argues against Ogres that don't have a chaos feature DG: and who aren't members of a chaos cult being non-chaotic. I have to DG: disagree with this -- all ogres have a chance of being born with a DG: chaotic feature (5%, low, but there) which means the race is tied to DG: chaos. More importantly, any ogre that comes within a certain distance DG: (1km?) of a Cacodemon holy ground will find himself in-advertently DG: revealing his "Ogre" nature -- ie eating dead companions etc. (This is DG: specified in Griffin Mountain, under the Cacodemon writeup I think.) So DG: all ogres are clearly chaotic. BB: I would say yes to all three, unless the individual has undergone a per- BB: sonal transformation (e.g. by heroquest) to rid himself of the taint. TZ: I would say no. No chaos feature, no taint. DE: Yes, unless said member has heroquested (or possibly performed some DE: special ritual known to just a few religions or priests) to eliminate DE: the taint of chaos. TL: Yes GH: It has had a spell like Corruption or Gift of GH: Thed cast on it? GL: Once I would have said yes to both, but since the comment from GL: Greg Stafford that one only becomes Chaotic voluntarily, I'm not GL: sure. Corruption can be cast on an unwilling target, though that would GL: be rare: I'm sure most castings of that spell are reserved for GL: applicants for Priesthood. GL: Q: Can you have Corruption cast on you more than once? DG: While under the influence of the spell, probably; afterwards -- DG: not for Gift of Thed; but if corruption is permanent in effect, quite DG: possibly. (Is corruption the 5pt, non-reusable rune magic spell that DG: corrupts something with chaos?) BB: Not sure about Gift of Thed, but definitely yews to Corruption. TZ: Gift of Thed leaves a trace I think. One has dabbled. DE: Yes (but see above comment). TL: Yes GH: It is a Lord or Priest of a cult with the GH: Chaos rune (such as Krasht or Thed)? GL: If you accept the state of mind argument, yep! On the other hand, GL: does Seven Mothers get Chaos as a rune? The high priests get a spell (I GL: can't remember its name) which temporarily gives them a chaos feature, GL: but which permanently taints them with chaos. If they were GL: automatically tainted with chaos, then this wouldn't be mentioned. As GL: you can tell, I don't have my copy of Gods of Glorantha with me. DG: Yes, anyone (anything) that reaches rune level in a chaos rune DG: cult will have taken close ties to the Chaos rune. An exception to DG: this is many of the Lunar cults; I'm not sure whether or not DG: illumination is required for priesthood in these cults (I know it is DG: for some), but they don't normally detect as chaos. (Which gets the DG: Stormbulls quite annoyed, and also saves Stormbull lives.) (This lack DG: of chaos detection is due to the lunar goddess's ties to DG: Nysalor(Gbaji).) BB: Absolutely. Rune ranks take on all of the runes of a cult. TZ: Yup also definite. DE: Yes. TL: Yes GH: It is an initiate of a cult with the Chaos rune? GL: Not automatically, I'd say. It would depend on how fanatically GL: s/he felt about the Chaotic elements of the cult. If Seven Mothers does GL: have the chaos rune, then no. DG: In general, not; but it depends on the cult. For most cults, the DG: initiate is not closely enough tied to the runes of the god to be DG: considered to personally hold the runes. In some cults, initiate DG: status is a lot closer tie than in others. For instance, Thanatari DG: "Doomed" are still considered initiate status (I think), but due to DG: level of commitment would probably be tied to Chaos. BB: No, I think in this case the initiate has not yet crossed the line BB: into being permanently tainted, unless he has accepted a corruption BB: spell or other similar permanent gift. TZ: I want to disagree here but I guess the whole Lunar Empire would TZ: glow if this was the case. OK I'll agree. DE: Yes. Hmm. On reviewing the responses from other netters I see DE: that I am in a distinct minority in this opinion. The general view DE: seems to be that an initiate is not tied closely enough to the runes of DE: the cult to be chaotic. But initiatehood is as close to the god as most DE: people usually get. The cult is made up of probably 95% initiates, in DE: most cults. Of course with persecuted chaos cults, this number may DE: change, but whether up or down is anybody's guess. Thats irrelevant DE: anyway. My argument is that initiates ARE the cult, to a large degree; DE: if the cult is chaotic, then so must be the initiates. Initiates have DE: been initiated into the cult; if its chaotic, then they've been DE: initiated into chaos; they can sacrifice for chaotic divine spells. DE: Initiates are chaotic, IMHO. TL: Yes. Consider a cult such as Thanatar - all initiates have a TL: chaotic mark which identifies them as initiates and in addition they TL: tarnish silver by touch and accept gifts from a chaos a deity. Krasht TL: initiates for instance have access to chaotic magic and know the skill TL: of sense order. All ini- tiates of chaos cults have given part of TL: their soul voluntarily to a chaos god. IMHO I think it is reasonable TL: to conclude that all initiates are tied sufficiently closely to chaos TL: as to be considered chaotic. MG: For those who are interested: MG: MG: Corruption is a 4 point Special Divine Magic Spell for the Cult of Pocharngo MG: the Mutator (The Cosmic Cancer). It is defined as touch, instant, nonstack- MG: able, one-use; there is a comment at the bottom of the spell description MG: stating that the only way to avoid the effects of a Corruption spell is MG: through the use of a Divine Intervention. RB: I think the answer may be to regard the question as really being made up of RB: two parts. There is the problem of being tainted with chaos physically or a RB: creature can have a chaotic attitude. This allow Greg Stafford's comment RB: that one can only become chaotic voluntarily to make sense with a Corruption RB: spell giving a character a chaos feature temporarily but still leaving a RB: chaos taint behind. RB: RB: Thus lay members of chaos cults would not necessarily be chaotic as they as RB: they are only giving worship to the Chaos god temporarily, probably for pro- RB: RB: tection. Initiates and other higher ups are chaotic chaotic because they RB: have willingly embraced the philosophy of a chaotic god and taken it as RB: their own. RB: RB: Being born with a chaos feature would predispose a creature to to being a RB: chaotic. However i would suggest that depending on on the society the RB: creature was born into would affect the outcome. Likewise with Broos, Scor- RB: pion Men, etc. They are born within Glorantha and thus are creatures com- RB: posed of law but since the vast majority get born into chaotic societies RB: worshipping chaotic gods they end up being chaotic. RB: RB: If a person gets hit with a Corruption, etc spell and resists but still gets RB: hit with a Chaos feature. Yes it is temporary but it but it still leaves a RB: taint on you physically and on your soul. It doesn't mean you are Chaotic, RB: unless you welcome it voluntarily and thus do accept Chaos into yourself. I RB: would suggest that experienced Chos fighting cults would offer means of get- RB: ting rid of the taint by heroquest or other magical means. Otherwise every RB: time some of your toughest chaos fighters survive a battle with some awesome RB: Chaos a lot of them would be tainted and you would have to kill off people RB: that could still be useful. This is because I would suggest that once RB: tainted you are more prone prone to being seduced by Chaos or chaotic ten- RB: dencies. The Dark Side of illumination. You would be regarded with suspicion RB: by all but should still have some way of purifying yourself. RB: RB: In summary you can be a chaotic creature without a chaos taint due to your RB: attitude to life. Or have a chaos taint but not be a chaotic since you RB: haven't chosen to embrace Chaos, yet!! RB: RB: With the Seven Mothers spell of Chaos Feature I think that using it would RB: make the priest or initiate a chaotic since they chose to do it voluntarily. RB: It is a side of the cult cult my Seven Mother's initiate is staying well RB: away from. However I do not think that just because the cult has the spell RB: that makes the SM a chaos cult. Only the people who use the spell voluntari- RB: ly on themselves are chaotic. No matter what the Orlanthi say. Although I RB: could be tempted to try and throw this spell on the Storm Bull in our party, RB: just to see how he reacts. GH: I just thought I'd point out on this thread that GH: not all cults that are sometimes thought of as Chaotic GH: actually have the Chaos rune. I believe the runes of GH: the Red Goddess, for instance, are Light, Moon, Truth GH: and Illusion. AT: According to Gods of Glorantha, the Red Goddess's runes are Life, Moon and AT: Chaos. TZ: In GoG The Red Goddess has the Chaos Rune. DG: I'm pretty sure Seven Mothers (which is the more commonly DG: worshipped Lunar cult outside of the empire at least) Has Life, Death DG: and Chaos; but also in Gods of Glorantha is given Moon. The Red DG: Goddess herself has Moon, but I think also Chaos and something else. GH: What's your source on this? I'm fairly sure that GH: in GoG, neither the Red Goddess nor Seven Mothers has GH: the Chaos Rune. The Red Goddess I'm certain that it GH: doesn't. This may have changed from Cults of Prax GH: (the 7 Moms write-up) DG: (Original source: memory) DG: DG: I looked these up last night in GoG: DG: Red Goddess: Fertility, Moon, Moon, Chaos DG: Seven Mothers: Fertility, Moon, Death (Cults of Prax only gives DG: Fertility and Death) LY: Misprint time. In Cults of Prax, the "artwork" shows only LY: Fertility and Death Runes for Seven Mothers, with a large blank space LY: in between. However, the write-up, under Runic Associations, says "The LY: central point consists of the Lunar rune, while to either side are the LY: runes of Life/Fertility and Death." CoP therefore has the Seven LY: Mothers runes as being Moon, Fertility, and Death. These are the same LY: as for the cult in GoG. DE: On page 64 of the _Cults Book_ in GoG, the Red Goddess cult is DE: credited with the runes of Fertility, Moon, Moon, (yes, 2 Moons) and DE: Chaos. I hold the book before me as I type. GH: Moria [sic.] doesn't have the Chaos rune. Nysalor GH: doesn't have the Chaos rune (not that it matters). GH: So, saying that initiates of cults that have the Chaos GH: rune are Chaotic does *not* affect the vast majority GH: of Seven Mothers ini- tiates. It would only affect GH: initiates of cults like Thed, Thanatar, Krasht, etc. DG: I'm not sure who Moria is. If you mean Mallia (mother of disease), you DG: may be right that she doesn't. But she associated with some bad people in DG: here time. But Mallia worship does not make one chaotic; and in some ways DG: the existence of Mallia is critical and necessary for the world, for DG: without Mallia there would be no decay of dead things, and so no renewal. KM: This is not true. Murthdrya (I think that's the name; the entity that KM: the black elves worship) provides for decay of dead things. I think the KM: cult writeup is in Troll Gods. SB: You mean Mee Vorala. Myrthdrya is the god of sea elves. DG: I'm pretty sure Gbaji has the chaos rune; in fact I think the runes for DG: Nysalor/Gbaji were Chaos and Light. GH: I'm fairly certain that the Runes for Nysalor GH: are Light, Truth and Illusion. That it has opposed GH: runes is significant. However, it does *not* have the GH: Chaos rune. It may have the Chaos rune in the Gbaji GH: the Deceiver aspect, but not as Nysalor the GH: Illuminator. DG: Looked this up in Cults of Terror as well. Nysalor/Gbaji (they are DG: the same god) has Light and Disorder. (Though some people have trou- DG: ble distinguishing Disorder from Chaos.) Nysalor has no ties to DG: Truth, and considering how some priests spread the worship of the cult DG: (and earned the "Deceiver" name) this is unlikely. The name Gbaji is DG: (I think) entirely used by enemies of the cult, while worshippers use DG: the name Nysalor. SG: Cults of Terror *said* Chaos, Light, Mastery, SG: but *drew* Disorder, Light, Mastery DG: See, even Chaosium sometimes has trouble distinguishing between DG: Disorder and Chaos! DG: DG: I actually would think that Light, Chaos, Mastery would be most DG: likely. DG: DG: (But definitely not Truth, and not Illusion.) DE: On page 85 of _Cults of Terror_, Nysalor/Gbaji is credited in the text DE: with the runes of Chaos, Light, and Mastery. On page 89, in the DE: Nysalor/Gbaji writeup, three runes, presumably meant to be those of DE: Nysalor/Gbaji are drawn: Disorder, Light, and Mastery. DG: Seven Mothers and Red Goddess are two different, though closely tied, DG: cults. Seven Mothers does (I think) have chaos, but due to the ties to DG: Nysalor, don't get detected as such. GH: I thought I'd point out with respect to the original GH: question (which I posed) that I think in all of these GH: instances, the being in question is chaotic. Just as GH: becoming an initiate of Storm Bull ties you strongly GH: to the Death rune, or an initiate of Chalana Arroy is GH: tied strongly to the Harmony rune, so is an initiate GH: of a Chaos cult tied strongly to the Chaos rune. Think GH: of what initiation into Storm Bull, or Chalana Arroy, GH: or Humakt, has as consequences for the initiate wrt GH: behavior and attitude. Shouldn't initiation into a GH: Chaos cult have equally strong consequences? DG: Actually, I find that Storm Bull seems more strongly tied to the Beast DG: rune than the death rune. I think of Storm Bull's runes in order: Beast, DG: Storm, Death; though Storm and Beast might be interchanged. If you want a DG: strong tie to the Death rune, look for a Humakti (or a Yanafal Tarnils). BB: Agreed; Death is brought by and comes to Storm Bulls as a result of the BB: rage that comes from the Beast. A cult with even more tie to Death than BB: Humakt, for my money, is Zorak Zoran - they even take the title Death BB: Lord at rune rank. DG: I have to disagree with this. Yes they take the title Death Lord, but DG: Humakti take the title Sword Lord, and the Sword is the Death Rune, DG: the weapon most closely tied to the Death Rune, and the weapon that DG: Death was first "incarnated" in. Also, Humakt was the first to wield DG: Death, and all others have either stolen it, been lent/given it by DG: Humakt, and had it hand to them (sometime without their knowledge) by DG: Eurmal. DG: DG: Also, Humakt gives reusable Sever Spirit, Zorak Zoran doesn't. (Sever DG: Spirit is the most pure example of a Death Rune application in Gloran- DG: tha.) GH: Well, since Humakt is the owner of the death rune, GH: that analogy would [...] SG: Now that Kargan Tor is out of the picture.... DG: Kargan Tor never had the Death rune -- he had the (lost) rune of DG: Conflict. Kargan Tor existed "before" the Death rune was DG: discovered. GH: [...] only work for Primal Chaos, and pretty much everyone GH: agrees than initiates of Primal Chaos are chaotic. DG: So maybe Humakt wasn't the best example -- I would also say that Zorak DG: Zoran initiates would be more strongly tied to Death than say Storm DG: Bull cultists. For one thing, Storm Bull though having the Death rune DG: doesn't get Sever Spirit, while several other Death rune cults do get DG: it (though non-reusable). I would consider this an indication of how DG: closely tied that cult is to the Death rune. (Zorak Zoran, and Thana- DG: tar both get Sever Spirit, I don't remember if there were others.) DG: DG: I would say that Storm Bulls are tied to the Death rune, but not as DG: strongly as to the other two runes of the cult. DG: DG: Just as a human initiate of Thed would be more closely tied to the DG: Spirit rune than the Chaos rune. (Of course, for Broos it is the oth- DG: er way around.)