The European bison = "Wisent". Not so. I have never heard or read of the term Aurochs (in English) ever being used to refer to the European bison. So this is not going to be another Elk/Moose controversy (thank heaven). It sounds like the confusion is entirely German, this time. I suspect that the confusion only dates back a few hundred years -- the appearance of an aurochs and a wisent are different enough that I can't imagine even medieval peasants confusing the two.
Biological Info on Aurochs for us to make plans with:
The aurochs is the same species as the domestic cow. An adult bull had a shoulder height of 1.7 to 1.9 meters, and weighed 800-1000 kg. The horns were up to a yard long.
A modern domestic bull has a shoulder height of about a meter, and weighs from 450 to 1000 kg (the upper end being for pretty fat specimens -- the 1000 kg aurochs was presumably almost all muscle).
The American and European bison are almost exactly the same size, with a few trifling differences in build (the wisent has stronger hindquarters, but the american bison is more massively built overall, frex). The American variety _looks_ bigger because it is shaggier.
The American bison is plainly more suited to a desert/plains environment, and I suggest that it is more like the Praxian species.
The wisent was wiped out in the wild by 1919 (World War I actually destroyed the last forest), but has been reintroduced from zoos, and there are now two wild populations -- one in east Poland and one in the Caucasus -- the Caucasus herd, however, has American genes in it. The Aurochs were probably wiped out by 1627 -- the last known herd was in Poland (interestingly, conservation efforts were actually made to preserve the last herd). There are reports that the aurochs may have survived longer in northern Iraq.
I have no sources on how widespread the wisent or aurochs were in medieval or ancient times. Did either ever live in the British Isles, frex? (I know there is a population of aurochs-like cows in England, but they're reverse-engineered, not genuine.)
A Bison vs. Bull combat is recorded in which a wild Bison was matched against a trained Spanish fighting bull (in Mexico). The smart money was all on the bull, for obvious reasons, but the scruffy wild bison, who'd not been humanly-bred for centuries for courage or strength, won handily. Other reports I've read of Bison vs. Bull contests seem to end the same way. Maybe because domestic cattle haven't been allowed to fight amongst themselves for mating privileges for a really long time. Of course, an aurochs (much larger than domestic cattle, by all accounts, and enormously larger than a bison) would no doubt have done better.
Where are the aurochs of Genertela? I find it hard to believe there are none -- perhaps in Balazar and/or Fronela? There are some wild cattle hsunchen living in Kralorela, but these are more like gaurs, koupreys, or bantengs -- i.e., buffalo, not cattle. There's also yak people on the Shan Shan heights.
Simon Hibbs:
>all Gloranthan cultures belive that their subjective view of the
>world is objectively correct. The Mostali and Malkioni are no
>different from any other Gloranthan culture in this respect.
You misunderstand -- not me, nor (I think) anyone else is trying to claim that the M&Ms are _not_ subjective. The difference here is that _only_ the M&Ms even possess the concept of objectivity. Unless, as I previously opined, the Mostali do not.
David Hall:
>If all the old wizards are celibate how do they make enough little
>wizards to keep the caste going?
I have proposed four different "career paths" for Rokari wizardlings -- the church hierarchy, monkhood, secular wizards, and the "low church". Secular wizards do not marry, and are expected to be celibate once they reach Adept status. Church wizards, either high or low, can marry, but once their spouse dies, they cannot remarry (like an Orthodox priest). Monks are celibate.
>Is this sex thing something bad for the Rokari? Like a sin of some
>sort? Sin is bad, yeah?
Sin is bad, but just as few Catholics are expected to be celibate, most Rokari can be as lusty as they please without sin.
>Maybe volunteer wizards randomly impregnate these nuns, and then the
>nuns bring up the male offspring to be good little wizards.
If this is agreed upon by a majority of the Runequesters that I respect, I'd propose that the "impregnators" be, not wizards, but non-wizard caste members. That way the wizards can still be genuinely and actually celibate, and the kids of the nuns can still be wizards. I approve of this for two reasons -- it means that the bastards don't ever get sex, and it also means that the wizards really _are_ bastards.
Monks and Retirement
It was very common among Japanese daimyos to shave their heads and become monks on their deathbeds (in hopes that this would cancel out their hideous crimes?). In one famous case, a powerful daimyo became very ill, falling into a coma. His advisors feared he would die, so they shaved his head for him and had him entered into monkhood. Alas, he recovered, and was quite surprised to discover that he was now a monk. (The advisors, one hopes, were suitably embarrassed.) Fortunately, he took it philosophically, and did, in fact, retire to a monastery from whence he no doubt doubt contemplated the vicissitudes of mortality.
I said:
>you don't need high-powered magical abilities to "achieve" monkhood,
>which you _do_ need in order to be a functioning wizard
Peter Metcalfe says:
>This is getting too close to the RW for my view which was the point
>of my objection. I wanted something more gloranthified.
Huh? [Puzzlement] Magic is valuable in Glorantha. 'Tis a useful resource that no surviving Gloranthan society could afford to entirely tuck away idly. The Rokari caste system means of necessity that a number of people not particularly talented magically are forced into being "wizards". I can't see the problem with forcing such individuals into monasteries and convents. If you want such folks to be the top of the scale and most important ethically and morally, that's fine with me.
>Personally I feel with the rampant sexism in Seshnela, Female
>religious orders would be seen as a vile persion of IG's way and not
>supported by the Rokari Church. Female Hermits may exist in
>Seshnela, but IMO, they would be viewed as heretics at the best.
Nonsense. Forcing potentially dangerous women into the relatively safe practice of non-breeding, non-interfering nuns, who just sit quietly in the their convents and stay out of trouble is a plenty Sexist thing to do. And a female hermit can be just as acceptable. Malorian England was plenty sexist, and they respected same.
Ralf Engels: Wonders what part Dendara has in Teshnos.
In my opinion, Dendara and Gorgorma are not worshiped in Teshnos. I believe that most women in Teshnos worship Calyz or Teshna.
The Origins of Gorgorma.
It has been suggested that the Dendara/Gorgorma cult was imported by the horse nomads from Kralorela to Peloria, because this cult is known to exist in both regions, which are otherwise quite culturally dissimilar. There is probably some truth in this assertion, but I do _not_ think that the Pent nomads intentionally imported Gorgorma to Peloria in an attempt to control the locals.
For some reason Sheng Seleris is credited with this spread, though the long domination of Peloria by the nomads before the First Age would appear to be a likelier time for such an introduction.
For one thing, we know that Gorgorma was well-known to the horse nomads, that she was a goddess of the afterlife, and that she was hated and feared by the nomads. The Lunar creation of Yara Aranis demonstrates this -- Gorgorma was selected NOT because she frightened the Lunars, but because she frightened the horse nomads.
My contention is that the Gorgorma cult originated in Kralorela, where it spread to the horse nomad culture. The nomads no doubt tried to instigate many practices of the Kralori cult of "Dendara" (or whatever it was known as) only to discover, with horror, that the cult of Gorgorma somehow spread among the Pelorians, too. This cult no doubt served as a focus point of discontent among the Pelorian peasantry, and ultimately contributed to Sheng's overthrow.
>I would imagine that the victim of Create Ghost type magic would be
>allowed a DI to resist it. Humakti of course are immune to such
>magic.
A ghost is _not_ undead, and in my own campaign, Humakti ghosts are not uncommon, staunchly guarding sacred places or forever seeking the unfinished goal of their lives. I have even instituted a geas the effect of which is to force the Humakti's spirit to remain a ghost after death, instead of getting to continue to his afterlife.
Bruce Mason:
>BTW have you noticed that there is very little Glorantha folklore?
I have indeed. You may have noted that some of my little Doraddi stories fall more into the category of folk tale, rather than myth. Though most of them contain gods as their main actors, the problems they solve don't "explain" anything about the world the Doraddi live in -- they just serve as good (or bad) examples.
Me:
> ...I don't think that such Malkioni believe that even they have the
>"truth", only that they have much more of it than anyone else.
Martin C:
>You think they're [the Malkioni] more sophisticated than I do.
>Anybody with a revealed truth from God is unlikely to have the
>humility or courage to see that we cannot be sure of anything. It
>took centuries of faith-shaking social upheaval and scholarly
>advancement before we got William of Occam
To cover your points. First. Yes, I think the Malkioni are more sophisticated than do you. What's it to ya?
Second: I don't think the Malkioni believe they have the Revealed Word of God in the way you seem to use the phrase. I don't, in fact, believe that the Malkioni are born-again Christians in the least, nor do I think that they are medieval Catholics. They haven't had a universally acceptable prophet since Hrestol, sixteen centuries ago, and I believe that the "intelligentsia" of Malkionism realize that their attempts to create a social structure based on Hrestol's teachings are at best imperfect, though obviously _my_ interpretation is better than the damn _insert bad guys here_ theories. I'm sure the Malkioni are just as adept at compromise and fitting available theories into self-serving dogma as were all of us at How the West Was Won.
Third, the Malkioni have _had_ centuries of faith-shaking social upheaval and scholarly advancement -- sixteen hundred years ago, the Malkioni were already at a reasonably advanced social level - -- they had social ranks, kings, emperors, iron-working, sorcerers, philosophers, etc., _and_ those ranks have continued to the present day. European Christians 1600 years ago were still part of the Roman Empire or else howling barbarians.
I think that the Malkioni are intellectually far more sophisticated than 14th-century Europeans.
End of Glorantha Digest V1 #20
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