>>There were Nysalorian Cults before this time.
>>There was one prominent one called the Order of Illumination which had
>>eight schools that was active before the Carmanian Conquest.
> So there was definately ample opportunity for some of the 7 Mothers
>to be illuminated. Further evidence that references to the Red Goddess
>reawening or reviving Nysalor are just Lunar propaganda.
Or perhaps not. The way I see it, Nysalor was killed and many of his secrets _lost_. The Arkati and the Theyalans went on a rampage killing all those who knew the secrets and for good measure those who could have had an opportunity to know the secrets etc. The Red Goddess, IMO, was the only one who managed to talk with Nysalor since then and find out those pieces of information that were unable to be reconstructed by the Nysalorian schools of the second age. All IMO, naturally.
> I think Yanafals and Irripi knew that they would end up breaking
>cult vows in the course of the ritual before they started, and so were
>probably illuminated. If you don't share my view of the cynical and cunning
>exploitation of the LBQ pattern by YT and IO, then you need not consider
>them to have been illuminated.
One can be cynical and cunning exploiters of Cult hierachies and magics without being Illuminated. The trait is called 'Wordly' in Pendragon terms. One merely goes through the motions of sincerity and dumps upon the piety of others. I can accept that some (or perhaps all!) of the Seven Mothers were cynical and cunning but this doesn't have to be the result of illumination! After all a God doesn't know everything that goes inside a follower's head (whilst alive - things may be different in the afterlife).
And by 'breaking cult vows' I presume you are referring to the theory that some of the Seven Mothers deliberately planned to fail certain sections of the Lightbringers Quest? Again I must insist that this need not be the case. The process is called Concious HeroQuesting. The LBQ has to be one of the most varied heroquests around. The Strange Fragment and Argrath's Saga all differ markedly from the orthodox LBQ peformed by Orlanth & co. Yet I don't hear of anybody insisting that Argrath was Slime Incarnate as a result. A Cult Heroquest, IMO, is not intrinsically a sacred rite. It is a magical path known by the Priests to gain similar gifts like their god did. One can muck around with it and the God would not care, IMHO.
As an example, we'll take Sandy's Berserkergang path in ToTRM#7. I go to stage where I am supposed to attract the attention of the Lord of the Table by boasting proudly of my deeds. I know a warrior now drinks in this hall and he has, say, the Axe of Worwaha Bisonlord which I want badly. Instead of Boasting of My Own Deeds, I loudly besmirch the reputation of the said warrior. He will get angry (as Uroxi are prone to do) and challenge me to a duel which I accept. Irrespective of the outcome of the duel, I have failed deliberately the Quest for my own ends. Now have I committed Blasphemy? I get the impression Urox doesn't really care what I did. Thus it is possible to fail quests without getting your god upset.
I'm sorry for the lengthy harangue but saying things the Seven Mothers must have been illuminated to do what they did sort of cheapens the effect of illumination and restricts the persona of non-illuminates IMO. The Influence of Illumination in History should only be reserved for the truely insane and downright perverse leaps of logic like the Doom of Oddi the Keen, Yelm and the World Without One, Causing the Sun to Stop, and the Unbearable Madness of Being Arkat. Ressurecting a Dead Goddess doesn't quite make it, it's been done before with Yelm. If the Seven Mothers were Illuminated then, IMO, they would done something wacky like trying repair the damage of Umath and pull the Sky Dome back down again.
Andrew Behan:
>> I'm rather leery of describing all cultures who worship animals as
>> Hsunchen simply because they worship animals.
>I thought everybody "knew" that apart from the Agimori (who were made by
>seven old women), the Brithini and the Ogres all Gloranthan humans are
>descended from animals. The Praxians (for example) have a story about how
>Waha seperated the people from the animals and the Kralori used to be the
>dragon hsunchen before they got civilized.
Well, you left out the Dara Happans, the Pelorians, the Orlanthi and the Artmali. Having Everybody Else evolve from a Hsunchen Culture is a mere God-Learner Conceit, IMHO, to 'prove' How Bloody Wonderful We Are. Much like Nineteenth Century prevailing Wisdom had the Whites at the top level of the Tree of Life with the 'darkies' somewhat further down. I'm really of the opinion that the God-Learner truths about the Hsunchen are completely valid for Western Genertela and become less true in the Shan Shan and Tarien, frex.
>> Erm, YarGan is 'seemingly chaotic'? The Trolls of the Shadowlands will
>> venture to disagree. (Y)argan's one of their favourite gods.
>I'm glad I said "seemingly". Apart from saying "The only good krjalki is
>a dead krajalki" I could say that I recognised the similarity in the names
>but didn't but didn't think that the description of YarGan/Arganum in
>either TotRM #13 or GRoY sounded terribly Uz (at the time) what with the
>Logicians and mouth-bellied champions.
hmm, so he's mentioned in ToTRM #13? <wistfully> I can hardly wait for it. However just because I said that YarGan and Argan Argar are the same person does not mean I think their cults are the same. I am working on a myth to explain the change. Coming Real Soon now.
>I probably shouldn't ask but whatever became of YarGans blue people (the
>Oroninae?) they are (naturally) mentioned as still being around in the
>Broken Council Guidebook.
I had heard that the Third Eye Blue People are related to them. Most of the Blue People, IMO, switched to the worship of Argan Argar (cf Players Book: Carmania Previous experience in G:CotHW) as opposed to YarGan with the advent of the Spolites. Some of the Blue People would have gone to the other side.
Sandy Petersen:
I had written:
>>And what does spells would a Priestess of Arachne Solara get?
>>None, IMHO, for any spells 'are beyond mortal keen' and Arachne
>>Solara 'does not respond to prayers and appeals'
Sandy takes issue:
> A priestess of Arachne Solara absolutely gets spells.
>Arachne's spells are "beyond mortal ken", NOT non-existent. That
>Deezola is such a priestess leads to many interesting speculations.
I'm really interpreting Priest, here, to mean one who leads worship ceremonies and her spells 'beyond mortal ken' to mean that no human could really comprehend the point of the magic. After all the Healers of Chalana Arroy lead services to Arroin whom they know has been wounded by Chaos and don't get any magic in return. Arachne Solara to me appears to be one of those Goddesses it would be wise to venerate. Deezola was would then be a figurehead Queen who is goaded into action and Heroic Deeds by continued Carmanian snubbing of her 'traditional' perogatives. If she was powerful before the Carmanian Conquest, then why didn't Rinliddi put up more of a fight?
>The only other important Arachne Solara priestess I can think of in
>Glorantha is Cragspider and the main important center of worship is
>Beast Valley. Presumably Deezola was a heroquester of some note.
And IMHO, the only reason why people think Arachne Solara is an important cult is that mysterious Cragspider claims to worships her as the supreme goddess. Looking at the Broken Council Guidebook, I see that 'Our Own Cragspider trapped the chaos in her webs, and created new life from its dry remains'. Sounds like the origin of the Spider Goddess recreating the world to me!
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #40
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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