Me>> Similarly I don't think the Carmanians would have described
>> themselves as Hrestoli. Malkioni would be the word they would
>> use IMO.
>Actually, their term of choce would have been "us", and that's different
>from "them".
Point taken. What I meant to convey was the the God Learners with their blasphemous 'Invisible God' could not have in any way been Malkioni (from the Carmanian PoV).
Me>> Or perhaps Talori after their most recent heroic leader.
>Then would you coin the early 2nd Age Seshnegi as Gerlanti?
The early second age Seshnegi Philosophy was Atomism. I think these dudes were so materialistic that they actually thought Solace was a physical place on Earth and expended their energies in trying to find it (ie Teleportation, Outer Atomist explorers etc).
Me>> The eponym of Hrestoli really comes into play in Loskalm
>> after they kicked out the God Learners and sought to return to
>> the pious faith that existed after Hrestol's Martyrdom (of which
>> Siglat's Dream was the most recent and effective).
>I don't think so. IMO already the people of Akem thought of themselves
>as Hrestoli, to distinguish themselves from the Malkioni who still followed
>Froalar's way, and the Brithini.
The 'Malkioni who still followed Froalar's way' were full blown Pagans in the eyes of the Malkioni in Fronela and would have been described as such. They would have only used Hrestoli when contrasting themselves with the Old Malkioni (who joined Malkion in his exile) and not the Brithini.
>> The Saints list is fine but I'm a bit iffy about Talor being
>> viewed as Arkat's lieutenant by the Carmanians. This is akin
>> to saying that Churchill was Stalin's lieutenant during the
>> Second World War IMO.
>In some obscure sources Gerlant and Talor are even named sons of Arkat.
Oh for Goodness sake! I'm talking about the Carmanian PoV not the attitude of addled Ralian 'Who was Arkat' Mystics. Talor is their man, the one who _saved_ them from the Lie. Arkat was a monster whom Talor set free to ravage the Bright Empire in Ralios.
[Attitude Towards Other Sects]
Me>> My main gripe is that this is _too_ comprehensive and not
>> comprehensive at the same time. Only now are the Carmanians
>> getting reality checks on what they think they know about
>> the Ralians and the Seshnegi.
>Still they might have known post-God Learner Fronela during the reign
>of Nadar the Avenger when they showed up at Eastpoint.
And what does this have to do about what the Carmanians know about Ralios or Seshnela? The Carmanians know about Fronela. They extrapolate what they know about Fronela to the Rest of the West. They do not have detailed knowlege about the Rokari or even know if the Castle Coast are not part of the Seshnegi Kingdom.
[Hrestoli, Rokari, Castle Coast Seshnegi]
Me>> I would groups these churchs under the same banner. They
>> are all descendants of the God Learner Church of the
>> Invisible God (Gack! Spit). The Carmanian views would be
>> mainly based on what they know about the Hrestoli. They
>> would assume that the Seshnegi are the same and think that
>> the Castle Coast is a part of the Kingdom of Seshnela.
>They might still remember the linealist/idealist schisma of Seshnela,
Why? This was a Seshnegi issue and not particularly relevant to Fronela. In particular it seemed to dwell on who rules what. The Fronelas seemed to have escaped debates about inheitance to play Credo! instead with Renouncers, Venerators, Progessional etc (details from 'A History of Fronelan Malkionism' in Codex #2)
>and identify the Rokari with the linealists and the Castle Coast refugees
>with the idealists, striking pretty close to home. Especially since the
>mercenaries in Lunar Dragon Pass encountered Rokari from Malkonwal, and
>may have brought home news of the vile Seshnegi.
Still sticking up for the Castle Coasters. How would contact with Rokari in Malkonwal confer the Carmanians with detailed knowlege of Ye Olde Seshnelan Chilvary? The mercenaries have brought home the news of Rokari, I agree and I have said this above with the 'reality checks'. However the information is still being sorted out. The Crusaders took Muslim POWs but this didn't improve their knowlege of Islam one bit.
And onto the Issue of True Mostali:
>Both Martaler and Isidilian are propagating Mostali heresies of
>individualism and openhandism, to varying degree, and have overstepped
>their castes' responsibilities and strictures many times. Or is it the
>place of Brass Mostali to bring up a war and fight hand-to-hand with the
>Only Old One? That's for the Iron caste to do. Does a Quicksilver
>Mostali give council? Wouldn't this be in the domain of the Gold caste?
Poor Joerg. The Last Orlanthi has being seriously transfigured by the evil cultural missions of the reaching moon megacorp and has now taking to becoming a Nidan Conclave Apologist/Polemicist? Reread the Broken Coucil Guidebook and RQ adventures #5 to counter the Nidan propoganda in DW#24 and Elder Secrets.
To confute your charges of Caste Crime: What did the Mostali fight with _before_ they made the Iron Crucible? To whit before Death came and Iron was invented, we are told that in DW24 'The Mostali fought in many early battles, marching purposefully in the wake of Kargan Tor, War God of the Celestial Court.' Merely assuming that a Modern Clay Dwarf in a Caste behaves exactly as the Original True Mostali would have done is misguided, methinks.
>I agree that most True Mostali would be revered leaders, foremen or
>masters. But would they necessarily lead in aspects not pertaining
>to their own caste's interests and duties? I don't think so.
Why this caste business for True Mostali? They were around before the Clay Dwarves were made to serve as substitutes. Don't you think they would know what is acceptable behaviour for them? They are not interested in caste's interests and duties, They are interested in repairing the Machine. The Container from whence they came only biases their perception of What Needs to Be Done.
Andrew Behan:
>Does the old orthodoxy that Easterners have Sorcerors, but treat them as
>artisans, stand? I assume this is true in Kralorela. Has this been
>replaced by Dream Magic in the EI?
Looking at the Church of Valkaro (whatever Loren's complaints about it), I think that Valkaro had introduced sorcery and integrated it into the Dream Magic paradigm and that this version of sorcery is the one picked up and used by the more Civilised Islands near the Valkarian confederation (ie Haragala, Mokato etc). I don't think the less sophisticated isles use this sorcery.
>Are the "exotic" Vorumai are standard theists except for a few weirdos?
They are just as exotic as Kralorela. The Colour Magic is the _most_ exotic aspect of their culture. More mundane Vorumai still have access to martial arts, Ki-types skills and mystical cults. 'Theistic' cults are still a major force in that people pray to Valzain, Zaktirra etc.
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #265
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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