Hon-Eel is also another example (like Sartar) showing that 'non-violent' in the sense of not using weapons definately does not imply 'pacificist' or 'not dangerous'. For example, she convinces a number of chieftains opposed to the Lunar way to murder each other for her love.
In fact lots of the Lunar stuff is a great source of non-violent hero paths. Many of the masks of the goddess are good sources of other heroquest ideas (ie redemption through suffering, seeing the truth, subversion of the enemy). Jar-Eel, while hardly non-violent, also has a repertoire of other interesting abilties. And the Entekosiad is just full of ideas.
Pamaltelan Doraddi culture is another source of interesting ideas, but not as well developed as the Lunar Myth by a long shot.
and then to answer various of Joergs comments -
>I wouldn't call people like Onslaught (or Meriatan, for that matter)
>heroquesters, and even less likely heroes. They are minimaxers, which is a
>quite common trait in people little concerned about their social background
>and current surroundings.
>
Did you mean Ethilrist, rather than Meriatram? In any case, I think both Ethilrist and Meriatram have pretty strong support from their 'community', even if in Ethilrists case his community consists merely of like minded freebooters. They may not have high moral motivations, but they are willing to follow Ethilrist into Hell!
I think an Onslaught in Glorantha would have been actively confronted with people wanting to learn from him, or people encouraging him to lead a band of elites, or such - and thus drawn into the wider social context whether he likes it or not.
>Despite deriding a nice game's name, this attitude seems to be part of the
>God Learner mistake in their runequesting. Perhaps the best name to describe
>quests like these would be raidquests - or dungeoneering.
Its certainly true that merely raiding the hero plane for whatever you can get can lead to some unpleasant consequences. But I think you are off at a bit of a tangent to what I meant. The God Learners had social support. And I certainly don't think raiding the heroplanes for power automatically throws you into God Learner territory. I think the God Learners mistake was the hubris to think that they knew what they were doing when they started changing the very nature of the heroplane. But you can quite happily raid the heroplane for power by just following tried and true reliable paths for your own benefit. And I don't think you even lose out on the deal, I think you end up better off (though the community that supports you does lose out). But if you raid the heroplane for power for your community rather than yourself, you will have a far greater effect on the world.
I think Argrath and Harrek are probably almost as accomplished as one another at heroquesting. But Argrath is interested in politics and empowering his community, while Harrek is interested only in power for himself. Harrek robs his community for personal power.
>IMO a heroquest has _experiences_ as the benefit, rather than powers or
>items. That other stuff is runequesting benefits, and may help or even be a
>prereqisite to succeed on a heroquest, but I don't feel that they can be the
>ends of one.
Well, I think the powers are side effects of the heroquest, not its primary effect. But I also think you can go on a heroquest with selfish motivations, and succeed.
>>Like Joerg, but with more testosterone and less reliance on Gloranthan
>>minutia :-)
>
><G> I guess I earned this, for my insistance that regimental spirit magic is
>tied to wyters (apropos, since Sandy touched the subject recently...).
And I did enjoy those discussions, Joerg! I still think you're wrong after thousands of words have passed back and forth, but I enjoyed the discussion. I do think it was best kept to private email rather than this forum.
>>It seems that most of us think it works the other way as well -
>>not only do you need community support to become a powerful hero, but the
>>most powerful heroes are those that support that their community back.
>
>I tend to adhere to the school of thought that this applies to any cult,
>hero-, spirit-, or divine. Just don't make this a quantity described by
>percentiles or POW...
>
I think its a moral choice we are talking here. In fact I will contradict my statement of above - the most EFFECTIVE or important heroes are those that support their community back, the most powerful in person may be those that selfishly retain their power.
But I think it definately should be kept as nothing but a moral choice for heroquesters to make.
>>It's
>>not an absolute rule - but even Harrek is tied into his community, and
>>gains quite a bit of his importance because of it (even if his community is
>>of Wolf Pirates).
>
>Not too much of a community, IMO.
> I doubt any effective HQ support
>would come out of this, except during a campaign to which the ship-crews
>have been sworn, and even then only a doubtful support, ready to by swayed
>by adverse circumstances.
>
I was under the impression that Harrek actually had religious support from at least those Wolf Pirates who originated in the Yggs Isles. I thought Ygg himself recognised Harrek as a champion, or something, so the Yggs Islanders follow him, even though Harrek himself takes is not religiously motivated.
Cheers
David
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