I realize this thread was convered before but I just wanted to postulate another possible position for the Sun Lord postion(In RQ terms). I always thought it seemed an awfully difficult postion to get and should represent the generalized Rune Lord(tm), in a lesser form. I mean something like reusable divine magic, just POWx1 for allied spirit, and no special DI(thats for the Imperators). In terms of magic for leaders of military units, it would seem that Dara Happan officers(Sun Lords, many at least in ancient days) would be outmatched by their counterparts in other cults.(Maybe thats why they lost...hmmm...)
>FWIW, I use Yelm Imperaturs as true RuneLord/Priests of Yelm, and likely
>they are initiates of the Red Goddess, too. They are heads of families
>or parts of families, and rule with a peculiar Dara Happan blend of
>indulgence and brutality.
I would agree that they are also usually lunar cult members, but I would also think that it would be the cult of Moonson, because it is the cult of the Emperor of Dara Happa, and therefore the cult of Antirius(In a slightly different form, and riding a big bat with Chaos ticks and 6billion eyes but hey who noticed). It also allows the Emperor to exact a certain added bit control over the nobles.
>I use the printed Yelmic "subcults" of Saggitus and Hastatus, or whover,
>as localized godlets who are associated with the sky. They may be
>called on by soldiers, or even revered by groups of men or special
>military units. But a soldier worshipping Saggitus to become a better
>archer is not required to be decended from Yelm. There are over 100
>deities in the DH pantheon, nearly 1/2 of whom are somehow related to
>Yelm! But in my Dara Happa, actual Yelm initiates are relatively few.
This sounds totally reasonable. Like Peter said, certain subcults will be favored in certain areas. Each of those subcults could also be represented by actual cults worshipped by commoners. I like the regionalization but I would generally classify each of these other entities into two main categories, the servants of Yelm and the close relatives of Yelm. In RQ3speak(tradetalk) I would consider that the servants=regional subcults of Yelm, whereas the close relatives=regional associate deities. This is not to say that the servants can't be worshipped separately, but tend to be worshipped as separate deities by very small regional groups(like hero cults,i.e. the town where one came from) or specialized groups (auxillary archer battalions as mentioned by someone else, commoner merchants). The close relatives are worshipped(in general) by larger sections as separate deities, and though they fulfill a portion of Yelm's rule, are significant enough themselves to receive worship whether or not a Yelm cult/Emperor is in power. Note, these were taken off the Gods Wall and I only included those that I thought might still have significant worship(I mean more than a small shrine).
Servants Close Relatives
- ---------- -------------
Hastatus/Avivorus(locals/mil units) Lodril
Sagittus (Aux Archers,Elempur Area) Dayzatar
Oslir (River Folk) Arraz(Probably very small)
Erissa (Healers) Polaris
Lokarnos (Common Merchants) Ourania
The Ten Workers Dendara
Hyros (harpers) Shargash
Avarnia&Tholm(Falconers) Buserian
Murharzam
This list is incomplete, probably partially wrong, etc. I organized it from GRoY(ivory ed.) This is not to say that each servant or close relative gives a spell in RQ terms, for many their gifts to Yelm are their obedience and service. This is the way that I think the local deities are integrated. This list is obviously wrong for modern Dara Happans because FS suggests that many sacred places and priests were destroyed. It is unclear what the worshipped pantheons are exactly, but there was obviously some revival due to Yelmgatha.
>Yelm the Youth *is* a laity stage. Also note that being resident in
>a city and citizenship (which is a requirement for being a member of
>the city cult) are not the same thing as I have pointed out to
>David before. Making the local city god the patron of Yelm the Youth
>reinforces the concept of Yelm being a City God rather than the
>feudal noble that is commonly believed.
>The argument originally was Yelm is a noble's only cult. I disputed
>this by saying the Yelm was an Urban Cult and cited evidence. I
>get rather tired when people now want to rewrite history and say
>that they meant _all_along_ that Yelm is primarily an Upper Class God
>(with some poor unfortunates reduced to penury) with the intention
>of casting me as some lone extremist. The quote about 'worshipping
>Yelm' also mentions in the very same breath that the peasants worship
>Lodril. Are we supposed to concluded that they are not members of
>the Lodril cult according to your exegesis? And the argument about
>Pantheon initiation is but a weak reed: Is an Issaries initiate not
>considered Orlanthi by his fellow clan members? So why isn't a citizen
>considered an initiate of Yelm?
I would assume because of the tradition of Half-citizens. They are not Yelmites yet they are members of the city cult in some form. They might be generically called citizens but legally they are not. This is just another way to keep the newcomers down. But I would agree with you in a sense, if they are a full citizen of the city I would assume they are Yelmite or direct descendants of Yelmites, i.e. its the family not necessarily the cult.
Yelm the Youth is a lay member stage(I always associated them with Nazi Youth Corp, YY red armbands and civic rallies, Alkothi polo hooligans) but I think it is separate from the type of laity that say the Lodrillite peasants are. To the Yelmite, the Lodrillites provide the role of the people to be led, the masses yearning to see the light out of the darkness, and assuming their proper place in the order of the cosmos. The Yelm the Youth members represent the sons of leaders, those who will learn by example to be just leaders, without the responsibility(initiation) to be leaders as yet. They still get to sit up front at service with their family while anxious pissed off lodrillites sit in the courtyard for the service to be over. I differentiate them in the RQ framework as lay members vs. initiates of an associate cult(as per an RQ4 draft). They are similar in approx. level but different in scope. The servant and the master are both needed in the Yelmic service as well as society.
I personally associate the Yelm Imperator level with a sort of feudal
noble, i.e.
owns a great deal of land, has Lodrillite peasants who work his land, has a
title(Count, Duke,etc.) Unfortunately centuries of nomad attacks have made
in safe(r) to reside in the cities for land owners. The established
presence of Yelmite families in cities being a result of forced tradition,
and along with the fact that it seems that Dara Happa(at least
mythological) has always had 'cities', have lead us to the present
situation of city associated worship. I also agree that the Yelm the Youth
initiation rituals represent the granting of full citizenship for that
person.
>>Yuthuppa means Gods Ship, and is where
>>Anaxial the Sailor landed his boat according to GRoY, and the city god of
>>Yuthuppa is probably Anaxial (and his wife). Though I guess they might
>>sometimes refer to him as Yuthu (meaning the God or Our God or similar) if
>>you really want to rationalise this very old name into current ideas.
>
>Given that Yuthubars is also mentioned in the GRAY leads me to
>believe that Yuthu founded the City and that Anaxial was a famous
>Sailor-Emperor that ruled from it.
But Yuthubars meant 'city of god' instead of Yuthuppa 'ship of God'. Yuthubars was where the Tower of Yelm was (not necessarily a material place at the time Anaxial landed). Yuthuppa was put on the hill where Anaxial landed after the flood. I realize the maps are not to scale but because the Yuthubars and Yuthuppa are both shown between Verapur and Raibanth doesn't mean that they are the same place. If Yuthubars was a city then Yelm himself was the god of that particular city. Anaxial was blessed by Buserian(who I personally think is the city god of Yuthuppa), who was formerly the god of Abgemmon, which has falled off the face of the lozenge. In other words I think the cult of Yuthu has been gregged or else is the slang way to say the god of the city for most half-citizens, just Yuthu "god". I would agree with you though that Anaxial was just a famous emperor who landed there, not the patron of the city of Yuthuppa. He is revered as a wise emperor and the start of a dynasty of wise emperors.
>If the Orlanthi are happy enough to have Issaries replace Orlanth
>Goodvoice and Lhankor Mhy replace Orlanth Lawspeaker, then I
>don't see why the Yelmics can't consider that Yelm the Archer *is*
>Sagittus and Yelm the Youth *is* the local city god.
later....
>What they said was:
>
> 'The arrows of Sagittus's pierce the enemy like the
> Sun's Rays piece the Clouds. Furthermore on the Gods
> Wall, Sagittus has a Bright and Radiant Face. How can
> Sagittus *not* be a spark of Yelm left to us from the
> Old Days?'
So in my frame of reference they would put him in the role of a servant of Yelm, whereas you would say he *is* Yelm the Archer. I think that the reason this doesn't occur is because there are separate myths in a GRoY/Yelmgatha caused Dara Happan revival and the people are located near enough to the places where this stuff supposedly happened. I think that this is also why they are localized. Perhaps the distictions fade the further one gets away. I realize that the Orlanthi might also have separate myths and live near the places, but mythology in Sartar is expanding to affect the growing culture in 1600s. Sartar hasn't been around as long as Dara Happa, and the Orlanthi of Sartar descends from a lesser role as husband to Ernalda in the Hearlands. Dara Happa has been pretty much the same mythologically since 1506.(Besides invagination of lunar families and cults). In summary, Orlanthi religion expanding, Dara Happan religion more stable(as far as deities and myths).
>Moonson founded the City of Glamour *and* is the bearer of Antirius
>(he is called the Red Emperor because his glow was reddish compared
>to Yelmgatha) and shines like the Sun. What more proof do you need
>of his yelmic credentials?
Don't forget that the glorious Emperor Takenegi, though he once glowed
redder than Yelmgatha, changed after the death of Yelmgatha. He shone a
'light [that] was as bright and golden as had been Yelmgatha's'. Obviously
a just and righteous emperor.
So spoke the lunar propaganda.
I have been trying to understand the Yelmgatha situation. Obviously he used the Red Goddess on his attempt to become Emperor, but I wonder if he in a sense sold his soul and his future empire to the Lunars for a lifetime of Emperorship.
But as Pam put it, it is your floating lozenge. Chris
(I've never actually gotten flamed due to lurking, maybe this is my first chance!)
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #136
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