***Genert's death, effects of:
Loren objects:
>I do not agree with the assumption that Genert's death has any
>effect on human fertility. Genert wasn't a human ancestor. Genert was an
>earth ancestor, no more than Ernalda's husband in the Garden of Prax.
And Michael Raaterova makes a similar point:
>Genert's magic was of the very earth and land itself, so the fertility of
>living creatures, which is the manifestation of Uleria's power, isn't
>affected much, unless these creatures were tied to Genert, the land or
>Earth in general.
So why are there so few plants (Aldrya) and animals (various deities) in
Prax? Because they're interdependent: no land, no plants, no animals. In
the RW I'd call it a food chain. Again in the RW, plants and so on that
aren't doing too well tend not to produce offspring, since they don't
have the resources to support them. (Yes, there are a few plants that
seed like mad just before dying and humans are self-destructively
stupid, but this works for the majority). Since this connection exists,
and this is Glorantha not the RW, it must be magical/mythical.
I've been assuming all along that the Fisher King principle applies in Glorantha: that is, that the wellbeing of the king/god/land-spirit has a direct effect on the land, and vice versa. Genert was the god of the whole continent, not just a bit of it: that's why it's called Genertela. His death would have removed the fertility principle from everything that didn't have its own source of it. Fortunately, most places do: but you do have to worship the appropriate deity to get a share. (I'm assuming here that all plants "worship" Aldrya, and all animals "worship" the appropriate animal spirit: it's only intelligent beings that get a choice).
Also, remember that pre-Compromise, the gods could act directly in the world, post-Compromise, they can only act through their worshippers. So no more direct automatic fertility, wind, sunlight, or anything else unless you keep those rituals going.
>Maybe before most of the human ancestors died in the lesser and greater
>darkness all men were like the men and a half? That I would buy for a
>buck.
I rather like this idea. Bigger and better anyway, the men and a half
have their own creation legend. And a lovely bit about how they gained
fertility, too! (Described in River of Cradles, and presumably in the
RQ2 equivalents: to precis, Agimori were created by Lodril to fight
Chaos, and gained fertility by drinking water for the first time, thus
overcoming their own fire powers.)
>But everybody being born infertile, and active magic required to become
>fertile, just changes too many things about Glorantha as we know it. For
>one thing, the humans are no longer human!
No, the whole point of what I was saying is that all "normal" humans ARE
fertile: it's just that that's as a result of magic. Like humans can be
demoralised, go berserk, and so on, and that's the result of magic.
Peter Metcalfe:
>This type of reasoning raises the question of how do the Sorcerers of the
>West manage to have children? Or given that every male praxian is an
>initiate of Waha (runes Death, Beast and Man), there doesn't seem to be
>any decrease in their fertility.
Let me clarify. I reckon that anyone who worships a deity who, in their
society, is the main father/mother figure, gets their fertility from that
deity. In Prax, Waha is the father/husband, so irrespective of his main
runes, he gives potency.
I don't know a lot about the West, but it sounds like a slight re-write of medieval Xstianity: if so, the Invisible Jehovah or whatever is definitely the Father. I don't know what the women do, but any religion that thinks women are evil and sex is a Bad Thing, and has some real magical power behind those beliefs, ought to have problems with fertility. Maybe that's why the Brithini went to such lengths to become immortal: they've run into the problems?
***Infertile Humakti:
Loren:
>My preference is for orlanthi-all Humakti to be potent, for several
reasons.
The reasons have been covered by others (especially Arkat), but I agree
with you. That's why I came up with the various sorts of Humakti: only
the ones who don't also worship Orlanth (or other fertility-related deity)
are actually infertile. The rest are a bit fertility-challenged, but why
not: they can always manage it when you need it for the plot, after all.
Just one "reason" to mention:
>5. Celibacy is a sacrifice, rather than an afterthought.
I said they were infertile, not impotent. And if you can have all the fun
you want with no risk of expensive side-effects, I'd say celibacy is an
even bigger sacrifice!
Various people have raised the question about Ducks, Lismelder, and other Humakti-rich areas. I'd say that where Humakti are as readily accepted as that, most initiates don't leave Orlanth, so they don't have a problem.
A thought: if the Death rune removes all fertility, can anyone explain Tolat to me? Assuming I've got the right name (my Gods box is out on loan): that chap who's a god of war and fertility and is worshipped by the Amazons? Didn't someone once say that opposed runes were a tad chaotic?
Ed Tonry complains of unfairness to Humakti:
>But Orlanthi can still kill. And they can be killed. Any follower of a
>fertility deity can kill or be killed. They are not immune to death just
>because they worship life. So why should a Humakti be unable to create
>life just because he worships death?
>You are setting up a very one-sided rule: death cultists are so firmly
>tied to their rune that they can have no use of its "opposite", except
>perhaps with magical assistance. Yet other cults have no similar
>restrictions. Even Chalana Arroy cultists, although forbidden to do so,
>_can_ kill. It is forbidden because it _is_ possible.
Some nice points here. After a bit of thought: 1) Fertility cultists can be killed: proto-Humakti can be born. This is being acted upon, not acting oneself.
2) CA s etc. can kill... I need several takes at this one.
***Humakt as source of euthanasia:
I love it! OK, so it's not for every Humakti, but if you want someone
killed cleanly, who else would you ask to do it? I don't think Sever
Spirit would be used though, that's overkill. Just a very sharp sword
and perhaps the human equivalent of Peaceful Cut? Isn't there something
called Bless Grave around? (like I say, my Gods box is away so I can't
check this). Something that makes sure they're cleanly dead, not hanging
around as a ghost or whatever. They're not resisting, so you don't need
SS.
OTOH... there's a Humakt-meets-Vinga myth that Nick Effingham wrote as an add-on to my main Vinga stuff. In that, Humakt absolutely refuses to kill anyone who can't stand up and fight him. (No, I'm NOT claiming this as gospel, obviously, but I'd prefer not to have contradictions in my own mythology) Now, I don't see any reason why the fight should have to be physical, when the whole point is that the patient is physically challenged. (The Fireblade plus bring-on-the trolls idea is attractive, but impractical in a CA temple!) Maybe the Humakti summons a cult spirit, who fights the patient. If the patient loses, he becomes a spirit in the service of Humakt? Maybe a spell-spirit for Heal, even? Since the ritual takes place in a CA temple, and those spell-spirits must come from somewhere?
***War Clans Pam Carlson explains it all, and as usual with her explanations, I agree with every word. Could someone (Pam?) who actually uses this War clan/ peace clan stuff post a full description, please? I get the general idea, but specifics would be nice. Is it on a Web page somewhere? Oh, and does the idea of a clan becoming a war-clan for the year fit with my idea of an individual becoming a Humakti of some description for a limited period (duration of a feud, oath, etc)?
***Fertility and Broo
I may have posted this idea before, but this seems like a good time to
bring it up again.
a) It has been stated that broo can mate with anything.
b) It has also been stated that they tend to go for mammals (goats, for
choice) and examples given of captives being impregnated are always of
female captives
c) The description given of Muriah (human Malia priestess and leader of
a gang of broo) in both Borderlands and Shadows on the Borderland state
that the broo resent her because she is barren.
This lot suggests to me that broo can mate with anything, but find it easiest with fertile mammalian females.
I would then take it a stage further, and suggest that to impregnate something/one that isn't a fertile female, they need to cast a spell or do a ritual. The less likely it is that the subject is capable of bearing a child, the longer and harder the ceremony, and the less likely it is that the broo know it. Most of them know the ritual that works on a human not normally capable of bearing a child (men, or infertile women), but of course they have to overcome the victims MP for it to work. That's why they haven't tried it on Muriah (assuming that gang even know it). The ritual is, of course, extremely painful for the victim and takes a long time: it doesn't have to, but the broo like it that way. This seems to cover all the facts stated above, and also means that both male and female adventurers have the same chance against broo: assuming that the female adventurer has taken some precautions, like choosing her cults so as to make her infertile. Which takes us back where we were.....
Jane Williams jane_at_williams.nildram.co.ukhttp://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~janewill/index.shtml
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