When you talk about the Moon in Peloria, you ARE talking about the Moon in Glorantha. This isn't a question of local flavor or cultural preferences, this is one along the lines of Magasta's Pool or the Block. Are you going to say that because Culture X doesn't believe in the Block, it doesn't exist for them? The Red Moon is likewise IMO a cosmological constant, although I can see differing cultures that can view her having differing explanations.
> In the Yelmic religion of Peloria, Storm is not really acknowledged
> as a separate power or element. Nonetheless, they dislike Orlanth because
> they identify him with Rebellus Terminus.
Cultures in the RW tend to selectively alter basic beliefs so that the members of said local culture possess the moral high ground, are made out to be powerful or puissant, or otherwise not embarassed. Of course the Yelm Worshippers of Dara Happa were not going to include in their histories the stories of their God's defeat in their histories! To preserve national pride the very element of Storm itself would be downplayed. I'm not that familiar with tha Glorious Reascent of Yelm (Gotta buy that stuff from Wizard's Attic ;), but I assume that in the teachings he passes to his worshippers, Yelm won't make himself looklike an idiot or a weakling, or admit to any wrong doing in the God's age.
> In the other religions of Peloria, such as the religion of Pelanda,
> they acknoledge several air deities, chief among them being Entekos, the
> goddess of virtue, blessings of the air, and the planet known as Dendara
> elsewhere. They also know of Walindum, a bad god of winter. The Moon smiles
> happily at Entekos, but no one likes Walindum. Moon is not opposed to air
> or storm, but is opposed to bad gods like Walindum.
Again, I suppose this depends on whom's Myths you accept as Truth. My
personal loyalties lie with Central Genertelan/Dragon Pass Myth, since
it seems the most broad and all-encompassing - For example, it seems
that Yelm is accepted and believed in by the inhabitants of Sartar and
the Holy Country, although not acknowledged as ruler.
>
> Speculation - The Red Goddess is known to have conquered the Star
> Bears, beings of the heavens who caused trouble. The Star Bears are
> associated with Gagarth by the Orlanthi. Perhaps in Saird, Holay, etc. the
> Red Goddess is known to have tamed Gagarth and driven him from the sky -
> confirming Orlanth as the rightful ruler? This gives a reason for the
> Orlanthi to be somewhat well disposed towards the Red Goddess, without
> lessening her storm conquering aspect?
I'm confused by this. How can Orlanth be 'well disposed' to the Red
Goddess for doing one thing, and still be at odds for her actions in
annother case?
>
> > What I
> >wanted to know is how local Orlanthi would deal with Lunar Occupation in
> >a given area.
>
> Its a political question as much as a religious one. <Snip>
However, one fundamental fact overrides all other considerations in Glorantha... RELIGION IS REALITY. Therefore, Religion and Politics, for example, are utterly inseperable. If the Red Goddess did not approve, their would be no conquests in the name of the Lunar Empire. Gods are not constructs, they have free will and directly involve themselves in the lives of their worshippers. If the Red Goddess did not want the current conquest to be occuring, she'd simply deny Rune Spells to her priest(esses) until they toe'd her line. Likewise, if they *were'nt* carrying out the conquests she demanded.
> > Do you hold the
> >view that the cosmological forces of Glorantha don't exist as such, and
> >the Moon VS Storm conflict only exists due to the desires of worshippers
> >in certain parts of Generatela (ie - those Pelorians want to get back at
> >the southern barbarians who have humiliated them so many times, so they
> >literally invented a Goddess to do it?)
>
> The Moon vs Air conflict is demonstrably not a universal
> cosmological given - the Lunars are well disposed towards the cults of
> Entekos and Molanni, and probably others. But Storm is not Air. The Lunars
> are opposed to rebellion, unless it is done by them, and so oppose Orlanth
> were he retains a rebellious aspect. Of course, they also oppose Orlanth
> where the Orlanthi religion preaches hatred of the Moon.
But Molanni and Entekos are Solar Air deities... Deities who have been subsumed and tamed by Solar Power (and later, Lunar Power.) As stated in GoG, CoP, and other sources, Moon seeks to engulf and conquer (or Heal, if you're Lunar) the entire Cosmos, absorbing the pliant Earth and Solar Deities, first, then setting herself against Storm. Storm, however, as embodied by Orlanth, refuses to go quietly, as Storm stands for those beings who wish to walk their own ways, as opposed to being engulfed by a Lunar Way. Thus, the stage is set for the Hero Wars! Remember, in all the cases I know of, Moon is the *aggressor* against Storm. If the Lunars just hung out in Peloria and didn't bother anyone (and the Red Goddess were just satisfied with her apportioned realm in the Middle Air), We wouldnt have the stage set for the conflict which makes Glorantha so exciting.
> And I agree with Pam - the opposition of Storm and Moon is a
> relatively minor aspect of both the Red Goddess cult and Pelorian thinking.
> The Sartarites are hung up on it, but its easy to blow it way out of
> proportion.
This is because in Central Peloria, Storm is not a problem. The masses have been placated and everything is peaceful. However, IMO, the Red Goddess is certainly concerned about Storm and the threats it poses to her conquests. Orlanth and his ilk are the one group of deities who do not fall easily to the splendor and glamour of the Lunar Way. They will be dealt with, in time... ;)
> Pam
> >(Except, of course, that everybody DOES hate Sheng...)
>
I dunno... From a Sartarite POV, the Sheng was a pretty cool guy! He
kicked serious Lunar Butt ;) Seriously, I feel that the inhumanly cruel
Sheng Seleris would be just as reviled by Dragon Pass folk as anyone
else.
> Oh, I have my doubts about soem of the more extremist Dara Happans.
> He was a Sky worshipper, after all. And he seems to have acknowledged the
> Yelm cult as the most favoured of the Pelorian indigenous cults (among the
> Warmed).
>
> Hasni
> >For one, I have allways believed that when a Gloranthan looks at the sky
> >and sees the Sun, she believes that it is PHYSICALLY Yelm.
I believe that is actually the true case! :)
>
> Yelm worshippers do. Everyone else thinks it is the Sun, and
> possibly has a myth about it.
>
> Hasni
> >Ok, I can understand that people might not recognize that the big
> >glowing ball of light in the sky is actually Yelm:the sun. However, I
> >can't reconcile the basic myth of "Orlanth kills Yelm, so Glorantha is
> >dark and the Trolls flee Hell because it's all bright and hot and stuff,
> >but Orlanth frees Yelm from Hell, and now the sun is there half the day
> >and in Normal Glorantha the other half."
Why Not?
>
> I think every one believes something along the lines of
> "Something went badly wrong. The Sun disappeared, and everything got cold
> and starved. Then the bad things came, including trolls and hideous chaotic
> monsters. We managed to survive, though many others didn't, and then we did
> great magical things to put the world right, and eventually the sun came
> back."
IMO, this belief is universal because it did indeed actually happen, but everyone interprets it differently not only due to local pressures, but also due to the enormity of the Myth and Magical act of the I Fought We Won itself. It seems that some variant of the "I Fought, We Won" is another universal of Gloranthan Myth. A great line of discussion would be to see what Mythic Events are universal in Glorantha, and which of these are commonly described in most myths.
. One
> worthwhile digest project, I humbly suggest, would be a very brief 'God
> Learner history', of things that everyone more or less agrees on (with
> annotations and explanations for where one culture significantly
> disagrees). We could start with the objectively visible (ie astronomical
> bodies and their coming and going), rather than attempting the monomyth.
Aside from the inherent problem of "History in Glorantha IS the Monomyth", this would be a great project, I think. Lots of good discussion could be derived from this. An inherent problem with the way Greg has written Glorantha is that many natural phenomena were formed by Mythic actions (Magasta's pool, the Block, etc.)
As far as subjective vs objective again goes, it seems to me the reason why debate on this topic is so feirce here on the Digest is because none of us want our favorite Pantheons, and their views of Gloranthan Reality, to be 'false'. I'm a big Dragon Pass nut, from my RQ days. Pam seems to distinctly favor the Pelorian/Dara Happan view of things, and so on. This is fine, with the only person to blame being our beloved Greg, who decided to make things interesting by making sure there was no true Monomyth in Glorantha, and by not pointing out who's right and wrong.
So, we come back to the beginning. I came into Glorantha as a Gamer, I feel that Glorantha is be definition a Gaming universe, and will always carry some of that baggage with it, despite Greg's best literary intentions. Now, as there are any Gloranthas, which Glorantha serves your purposes best? For me, it's one where the Gods struggle for supremacy through their worshippers, and the Myths are re-enacted, and new ones created, in the struggle of the hero wars, as Myths and Cultures clash. A Glorantha where the Lunar Way is correct, and what the southerners call Orlanth is simply an aspect of Rebellious Terminous, may be better for some. I finally find myself becoming a universal subjective objectivist, believing in my own one Glorantha, while seeing the splendours of the Gloranthas of others, here on the Digest. Thanks to everyone who has challenged me here and shook me up. I hope that I've provided some insights as well.
Final riddle - I'd like to take an informal poll. How many members of
the Digest ...
(a) Came into Glorantha via gaming, as opposed to fiction? (KoS, Gray,
etc.)
(b) Still play Glorantha-based RPG's (RQ, other home-grown variants)
(c) Seriously write Gloranthan based essays or fiction (Myths, Stories,
Poems, etc?)
May Arachne Solara bless you and keep you whole.
Chris Bell
remster_at_interport.net
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #487
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