>I think I recall comments from Sandy to the effect that Poimers could
>become 5DW, and from Greg that there were (also?) other methods, so
>scope for some Argumentum Ab Dei Creator either way.
The existance of other methods is implied in the published literature (a full exegisis is available on request but it may be preferable to order your last meal first).
[On the question of whether PoIM cultists can become Five Dragon Warriors]
Me>> I don't think so. It is a bit too easy to become a 'Dragon' via
>> Immanent Mastery and the resulting Dragon is no tougher than a
>> Winged Dragonewt.
>This is something of a self-correcting objection; it suggests to
>me that the Five Dragon Warriors don't just need to sprout a tail
>and some knobbly bits, they need to conform to ISO-3201-DRGN, the
>official Exarch Dragonyness Standard. (Meaning, _lots_ of Poim
>magic, if you choose that route.)
I was thinking that when Dragon Lord speaks about them (in GoG) and says that 'The superior man can comprehend their systems vanity', the Mandarins can tell the difference between a False Dragon (that attained using the magics of the Path of Immanent Mastery) and a bona fide True Dragons (attained by the FDR prior to the Dragon's Awakening Shudder and by the Mandarins today).
Whether it's a question of the technique used, observable differences in the shape of the dragon or only apparent by special mystic vision is open to cool ideas.
>I wonder what the entrance exam of the 5DW is like? Perhaps it includes
>a certain element of Destructive Testing.
I think the process is more akin to the Catholic method of determining who is a saint and that the first transformation is spontaneous rather than performed to order.
After a kralori undergoes his first transformation, his mandarin is obliged to write to his higher ups and detail the circumstances. A board of inquiry is then formed which interrogates witnesses and known associates of the transformee before certifying it as a true draconic transformation. Special attention is paid to whether the transformee might be a Path cultists and if he is found to be one then the board will refuse to certify him.
If a transformee is certified then his name is entered as a student in the Daruda rolls at the Imperial University. He is exempt from taxation so that the student can save up and support himself at university. Many people do not travel to the university but revel in their tax-free status.
Of course, recognition only comes if one is in the Good Books of the local Mandarin. If one is known to be somewhat shady or a Path associate then the Mandarin does not bother writing in a report. Thus authentic draconic transformees can slip through the system.
It has been known that certain Path cultists have managed to fool the Board of Inquiry and gained admission to the University. They are generally unmasked on observation of their second transformation. Some have been known to be unmasked by the examiners on the fourth or fifth transformation. Rumours of PoIM cultists among the ranks of the Five Dragon Warriors are officially denied.
Also known is the deplorable practice where a board often rubberstamps the application of an influential person (like the younger brother of the local governer, say).
>I think that the PoIM is very much the sort of cult that would have any
>number of different "schools" or "traditions", each of which thinks the
>others are degenerate heretics/statist collaborators/wimps/motley-
>looking creatures with appalling scale texture/yadda-yadda, and will
>regularly engage in contests of transforming skill, debates of Spurious
>Mystic Logic, combat, politicking, and what-have-you.
I think the main differences between these schools is that they are organized along family or clan lines. The nature of Charismatic Wisdom would be such that it can provide a credible doctrinal reason for any old difference IMO.
>Whether or not any are actually directly _run_ by the
>imperial bureaucracy or not, it makes sense that some would be
>(relatively) respectable, and others Quite Beyond the Pale.
I suspect that the relatively respectable factions would be the ones that control the local Mandarins rather than being politically correct.
Stephen Martin:
>>>BTW, can we stop referring to anything which people have gotten from
>>>Greg over the years as coming from Greg's Trashcan or Wastebasket?
Me>>No. I find it very useful to describe the nature of the sources
>>in question. If they haven't been published, then they should
>>not be treated as Holy Writ from Upon High that should be adhered
>>to on pain of Defenestration.
>Um, did you miss something?
No. [looks around]. Did you?
>I asked that we refer to the source
>differently, I never said we should not cite our sources. Since I try
>very hard to cite my sources, and also try to mention when they are
>unpublished, I feel confident in asking this.
The original grounds IIRC for not using the term was that it was offensive. Since the offensiveness of the term appears to be largely within the eye of the complainer, I see no reason to stop using the term and plenty of reasons to continue using it (namely that it playfully emphasizes the unpublished and hence changable nature of the writings).
>Contrary to what Alex
>Ferguson said, most of the references have seemed to me to be derogatory,
>not in the spirit of fun. And not all of them were aimed at me, either.
I'm suprised by this. Checking my archives, I have found only _five_ references to the phrase *including* the original coinage (which is somewhat inoffensive given the other things that were said in that post). Of the remaining four, one is by Joerg (vol 4, #150) which is non-derogatory. The next reference is said by me is non-derogatory (vol 4, 314) and the fourth reference is Joerg simply quoting me. The last is Alex (vol 4, 532) which is also non-derogatory. (Also interesting is the phrase is only used when the topic is about early Orlanthi but I digress...).
So whence these derogatory references?
EWF:
A footnote to my puzzlement about the relationship between Delecti's Necromancy and EWF sorcery. I just remembered the Draconic equivalent of the Life/Death Dichrometry was the Utuma.
Sandy in his Dragonewt magic article in Codex #3 has said that 'newts don't learn from experience until they die and are returned to their egg. Humans OTOH are continually cleansed by the Cosmic Utuma (from the 'newt PoV) so they grow old and die *and* don't have to suffer death to learn anything.
It seems to me that for a human to cast draconic magic, he would have to spiritually alter himself into a draconic state to temporarily cast the spell. Upon reversion into the human condition, the human has to relive the trauma of being killed by Humakt/Cosmic Utuma. So (in roolz terms) for a human to cast a draconic spell of the type described in Codex #3, he would lose general hit points equal to the amount of trait points that would have been lost(*). His traits will regenerate automatically in the human condition although powerful draconic spells may cause a bout of Pendragonesque Melancholy.
IMO The way to circumvent the trauma was through the use of the Utuma. By skilled use, one could make the trauma _cleaner_ so one doesn't suffer damage. (In rules terms, I would treat the utuma roll like a Don Armour skill and use the resulting number to reduce the amount of damage). One could always use scorn wound but that is more expensive.
Delecti's Necromancy would then come about from his continued study into the mysteries of the Utuma. He has permanently transformed his spirit into the draconic form but in order to maintain a link with the human condition (so he can learn and not suffer trait burnout through excessive use of draconic magic), he allowed his body to decay. This could be reversed by consuming treated corpses and so I think his appearance fluctuates between freshly dead (still warm) to mere skin and bones. Because of his prolonged use of EWF magics, he has become so used to his condition and does not see anything wrong with it.
This would suggest that his zombies and skeletons are not enchanted automatons (a la the Zorak Zoran spells) but actual people who underwent Delecti's transformation or have been brought back to 'life' after being killed by his creatures (and gone mad).
(*) although the article suggests that using draconic magic excessively will lead to a loss of humanity, I don't think the erosion of traits in humans is the way to model this. Fully traited 'newts are just as alien and exotic as new-born scouts.
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