> I agree entirely that RQVision != Illumination but I don't know that
> I've ever heard it authoritatively said that they couldn't be enjoyed(?)
> by one person at the same time or that a Deist mindset is required
> before Illumination.
>
> Remember that Arkat was raised as a Malkioni and also illuminated.
>
> I agree that Illumination has strange effects on Deist minds but believe
> it could have equally strange effects on Malkioni.
Anyone can be Illuminated - Theists, Malkioni, Mystics in the East - don't forget that Nysalor is also honoured in Kralorela (I believe)and that dragons are said to be Illuminated. Arkat was raised on Brithos - I cannot imagine anything more hidebound than that, if one of the Brithini can become Illuminated then anyone can.
>
> > (Sidebar: please remember that the powergamers all want
> >to be Illuminated so that they can ignore cult restrictions, break
> >geases, etc. To a Malkioni, this is all garbage in the first place.)
Nonsense - Illumination in one sense allows the transcendence of your current restrictive state into a new, possibly less fettered state. Malkioni have as many restrictions, if not more, than members of cults. Don't forget that Arkat, the best example, used his Illumination to progress within and leave two Malkioni cults - The Knight Caste in Brithos and the Hrestol Cult. This is not a PowerGaming thing, but as with all things can be used by PowerGamers. (If you gave a Powergamer a piece of string they would try and strangle someone with it - I know, I was in a scenario where we were placed in a copy of a Victorian suburban House and ran around tearing furniture apart, getting pots and pans and improvising weapons (Pot Parry = half medium shield parry, if you are interested.)
Andrew Joelson:
> All this aside, I am saying that the Diest mindset is the one
> that normally leads to Illumination, as the Malkioni normally end up with
> Solace, and the Kralorelan mystics normally end up with Enlightenment.
> There are always exceptions, (and Arkat was a walking exception to just
> about everything
And trolls go to Wonderhome, Orlanth to the band of Heroes, Uroxi to the Eternal Battle, Humakti to an everlasting battle - these are evry bit as good afterlives as Solace or Enlightenment. Admittedly, Illumination is the closest thing to a transcendental mystical experience for all theists, but each one can get as mystical as they like within the Cult Secrets - how much more mystical need you get than to understand all of Ernalda's Secrets? Who needs some whacko thing like Illumination then?
Loren Miller:
> So a pious God Learner would never offer worship to any god other than
the
> Invisible God, and a pious Illuminate can offer worship to many gods.
Looks
> pretty incompatible to me.
But, a pious God Learner may well pay lip-service to inferior gods to gain their secrets - this is not worship as you do not really believe in their supremacy, you are only using their abilities. Illumination is a wonderful tool for this as it can allow you to take knowledge and power from the demons but not become entwined in their heretical beliefs.
In any case, the pious God Learners were the ones who originally cleaned up malkionism by separating the Heresies from the Truth. The later God learners who expanded the work to cover those cults which were not Malkioni based were the ones who would use Illumination.
Nick Effingham:
> (BTW nice to see you back Simon! Even if you are going under the
pseudonym
> of Nick Krass...)
Thanks, "I'm in Disguise!!" (Not quite The Kurgan, but getting there).
Going to Hell:
If you die on the mundane plane your spirit goes to Hell, then on to a Paradise/Place of Punishment (unless you are Brithini or Mostali in which case you are snuffed, a Dragonewt in which case you are reborn, a pious Malkioni in which case you go to Solace, A Vadeli whereupon you do something else ......). Your body genreally stays where it is.
If you die on the Hero Plane (places physically in Glorantha but outside the normal places - including Hell, The Underworld, the Sky etc.) then your body stays where it is and your spirit goes to Hell.
If you die on the God Plane, what happens depends on when you die. You may just get up again and walk off to Hell all by yourself, being forced along the Path Of The Dead. You may just sit there and wait to be put back together again because Death is not around in this phase. You may get up physically and start bothering the locals (Daka Fal separated the Living and the Dead so that poeple knew the difference). In any case, dying in the God Time is different than dying in normal Time.
In all of these cases, you have died and have no choice in what you do (shamans and certain heroes and people with Godling Bones aside).
People who are captured and thrown into Hell are a different thing entirely.
They may have been physically captured, put into a sack and taken down that long staircase, in which case they could eventually escape, fight their way out and return to the surface with a very good story and lots of treasure (a typical RQ scenario).
They may have been magically captured and their soul taken and placed in a Hell. This is not good. It is very difficult to escape from this kind of thing. Basically, you either have to fight your way out (as a spirit - shamans could do it) or wait to be rescued. You still need a body, assuming that your old one has not been cut up into tasty morsels.
They could have been physically captured, placed in Hell and their souls taken and placed in another part of Hell. Once agin, their souls could escape or be rescued and find their old bodies/new bodies.
The tricky part is to decide which of these is true.
Yelm was killed but his body walked down to Hell. When the LightBringers brought him back (or showed him how to escape, or when he Gloriously released himself when his enemies said that they were wrong and he was right and could he stop sulking and come back to light the world again) he physically got up, threw open the Gates of Hell and rode his chariot into the Sky.
Sheng Seleris was physically brought to Hell and when he called on the Powers of Justice to bring Argrath to him and help him become free (using Yelm's HeroQuest, in my opinion) he physically leapt to the surface and scared the Moon.
Arkat, however, had his soul captured and taken to Hell. I believe that when he Quested to the Gates of Castle Kartolin, he was attacked by the Guardians, killed and bound into Hell as a punishment and an example to those who would folow his ways. Harmast Barefoot had to go into Hell, find him and bring his spirit back - although I have no idea how he found a body for Arkat. Perhaps one of the HeroQuestor Companions were not as lucky as they had expected.
Anyway, it is a moot point.
>From a Gloranthan Mythos point of view you went to Hell and either stayed
there or returned through whatever means. Whether you were physically there
or spiritually there is irrelevant.
>From a Role Playing point of view, well done for playing at a high enough
level that you can be taken down to Hell and possibly return. The GM has to
decide - were you killed, captured or killed and captured? Whichever he
decides has effects on how you can escape. I would guess that only those
who know the HeroQuests of one who has escaped from Hell, or has travelled
through Hell could personally escape from Hell. Anyone else has either to
wait and hope he is released or perform some Quest to force someone to help
him.
David Weihe:
> I *do* know that the Romans were never so stupid as to believe that they
> could profitably civilize the Irish by conquest. Also, if I recall, isn't
> AD 400 about the time that Finn MacCumhal was flourishing? If so, then we
> know a fair amount about the period, even if it does have to be first
> decoded from legend into mundane facts and theories.
Why would they have wanted to? A bunch of savages living in Peat Bogs - and that's only today - they were far worse then!
Map Making
When I posted this, I expected a barrage of copmplaints that it was not Gloranthan - how dare I put this up on the Digest. (The answer would have been - tough, it's an unmoderated list so ha, ha!)
However, I received a number of requests for a copy of the map (not what I
expected or meant). When I said
> How about it guys? I can send you a map if you'd like.
what I meant was
> Still, I live in hope of Chaosium bringing out a map of Central
Genertela, after all if I
> can do it then anyone can. How about it guys? I can send you a map if
you'd like.
In other words, if Chaosium are thinking of bringing out a map of the area then I can send them one to look at, steal or use as a template.
However, the damagae has been done. If anyone would like a map covering the Wastes through to the borders of Ralios, from the Ocean to the southern edge of the Blue Moon Platuea at 30 miles to the inch, drawn by a moron with no talent, please send me an email and I will send you back the form email I have used so far informing you to send me your address as I can't email paper. When I have decided on a fair price (reflecting the 3 months of agonizing and extremely unpleasant work and the fact that I would like to give it away free) and when I have retrieved it from Naas (in the Peat Bogs of Ireland, as if you did not know) and when I can find a place in Moscow or Dublin (or even England - I may well travel the length and breadth of Europe to get this done for you as you are wonderful people) then I may well send a copy back to you. However, as my brain is like Swiss Cheese I may well just forget, so no promises.
Anyway, enough rambling - I'm going back home now (my flat is 2 minutes walk from work and 5 minutes walk from Red Square - Tee Hee!)
Simon
Simon Phipp (Not Nick Krass as I am using his email at work and driving him potty!)
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #73
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