Me>>I dislike the cookie-cutter model of pro-arkati rurals against
>>pro-nysaloran cities presented here. This presumes that the
>>Enerali have somehow acquired marxist class-conciousness.
>The situation is bound to have been more complex, but is I included
>qualifiers everywhere, I'd end up with a manifest like those in Life of Brian.
I realize that but I'm saying that IMO the basic model is flawed.
>After all, the first exposure of the Ralians came
>through the Kethaelan and Manirian Council missionaries - the one to leave
>marks even in backwater rural communities. The later exposure would have
>radiated from the cities, since the Dorastans (not exactly Heortlings IMO)
>already believed in a pyramid structure.
Once again the rural=good, urban=bad analogy. The first Theyalan missionaries would have dealt with the _leaders_ of the societies they reached. The wisdom would then flow out from the leaders down to the masses.
>>He would have only become aware the usefulness of past experiences
>>when he met Harmast and was initiated into Humakt IMO.
>The experiences as a Horali didn't help to become a Seshnegi knight?
And as I said before, the Seshnegi had good myths to explain the transition between Brithini and Seshnegi for Arkat's satisfaction.
>>>And do you think that Maklamann was the only noble Ralian who took the
>>>side of Arkat?
>>Well he seems to have made a hero for it.
>You said he made a hero for sticking to Arkat when none else would. Far
>outside of Ralios, too, and irrelevant to the point that Korioni and other
>Enerali leaders would have supported Arkat (for whatever reason).
You have no source claiming that Korion and the other Enerali supported Arkat. The only relevant text is that Arkat formented rebellion in the contryside and that heathen barbarians came in from the hills. From this, you construct a scenario where the nation of the Korioni revolt as a whole (sans city and priests) to help Arkat fight against the Telmori (who were not even his enemies!).
IMO Arkat relied on support from disaffected elements in the countryside (of all three tribes) and Vustrians in his effort to cleanse Ralios of the Deceiver. I do not know why those elements revolted or what their grieviances where any more than I know the precise nature of the grievances of the Heortlings viz-a-viz Nysalor.
>You started saying somthing along the line "no Enerali except the
>person of Maklamann joined Arkat".
I said that Maklamann was condemned by his cult for supporting Arkat who was a foreign invader. The condemnation by his cult/society is a fact from ToTRM#5. You have attempted to introduce an Orlanthi Parallel which reduced the trageedy of his circumstances to a mere slap with a wet bus ticket by saying that it was only a few pompous Nysaloran Priest-Twits in the City who excommunicated him.
>>>Don't you think that enemies (= neighbours) of the
>>>Telmori would gladly ally even with demonized troops to get even?
>>And the Telmori in Ralios were Pure Ones who were not supporters
>>of Nysalor.
>I don't really believe in Pure Ones, but I am fairly sure that Arkat did
>even less so. They fought his troops with wolf magic as well, and unlike
>Storm Bulls Arkat doesn't have "sniff chaos", only "sniff taint of Gbaji"
>which doesn't really apply to the werewolf gift.
The Pure Ones were not allied with the World Council nor the Dari Alliance so why would they fight for or against Arkat? Their real hammering comes IMO when Talor crosses the Wolf Pass and sees the Wolf People and assumes that they are kindred to the Big Bad Wolf People that he just spent blood, soil, tears and toil in cleansing Fronela of.
>>I said before the City of Wolves was a Old One enclave
>>that lay in East Ralios.
>And I don't buy that.
Published literature tends support my point that the City of Wolves is in East Ralios rather than North Ralios where the Telmori were.
>>>And (3rd Age) Safelstran (at least) is related to Stormspeech, i.e. is
>>>related to the Theyalan language.
>>No it isn't. It's actually a western tongue!
>Yes. With strong other influences. Which are: Theyalan, Darktongue, and
>"Hsunchen". Otherwise it would be Brithini.
Nonsense. Most of the influences would have come from the ancient tongue of the Galanini which is neither Theyalan nor Hsunchen. Darktongue is the only other tongue which would have an impact.
>>Because it is not stated that the Enerali became Orlanthi (as opposed
>>to the Vustrians etc)
>It isn't stated that the Bemuri became sort of Orlanthi (though not really
>Heortling). Yet you accept that they did. What's so hard about the Enerali?
Because the Bemuri would have become Orlanthi _after_ the Chaos Wars when because of grevious losses, they became vunerable to Orlanthi influences and assimilation.
>>And Jeff agreed that the Galanini did not become copies of Heortlings
>>which was what you were originally arguing.
>No, I did not. Neither did the Manirians, or (alas) the Talastari. They only
>shared the problems caused by Lokamayadon thinking the division of power
>through to the end.
>I said they had the same problems wrt priesthood vs temporal power as did
>the Orlanthi. I said that the storm priesthood tended towards closeness to
>Lokamayadon's unified cult of storm, and that kings like Maklamann resisted
>this.
And I pointed out that this was following the Orlanthi parallel far too closely for my likes and I have not seen a convincing reason why it should be so.
>The Lightbringers had brought powerful magic to the priesthood which
>exceeded the powers of the royal magics. They remained Enerali, but their
>magic allowed them to ignore royal commands if they stood united.
Rubbish. This is introducing the Orlanthi parallel far too much and even makes unwise asssumptions about the circumstances of Alakoring's reforms. I find it difficult to believe that any sizable body of priests anywhere in glorantha could function as a monolithic bloc.
>Nick gave very good points for knights vs. wizards. Replace knight by king
>and wizard by priest, and see how it fits...
For your parallel to hold up, the Knights would despise the Wizards because the latter are introducing Nysaloran and Theyalan Doctrines...
>And OF COURSE the parallel is not as easy as that. Details differ. It's a
>comparison, not "a is identical to b".
So why bother introducing the Orlanthi parallel in the first place then?
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