> The main difference between Glorantha and the RW is the proven existence
> of otherworld beings. A Gloranthan scientist can measure a ghost for
> example.
An intriguing example to choose.
The Brithini (usually treated as "scientists" by the less Glorantha-literate members of this list) may well be able to measure, use and abuse ghosts, but they do not agree with other cultures about what a ghost *is*.
To wit: many Gloranthan peoples take the existence of ghosts, summoning of ancestors, priestly visions of heaven and hell, etc. as "proof" of life after death; the Brithini, undoubtedly aware of all these "otherworldly" phenomena, do not accept this claim. To them, Death is Forever.
The various psychic remnants and echoes of a dead person are no more proof of his continued spiritual existence than the ongoing processes of decomposition in a corpse are demonstrations of the continuing organic viability of the dear deceased.
So, yes, Brithini can "measure" ghosts. It doesn't mean there is no room for doubt, debate, uncertainty (etc.) about what it is that is being measured.
> In a sense a worship ceremony is a summoning ritual.
I agree completely with this. You will see this in my Spirit Cult rules, in one of the rare, collectible issues of the "Gloranthan Weakly", where I conflated the ability to summon and worship a spirit into the same spell, seeing no need for monkeying around with terminology.
> It is morally wrong for a Sartarite to worship the sun (Yelm).
This is similar to saying "it is morally wrong for a Christian to worship God (Allah)". The Sartarite sun god is not Yelm, so the situation hardly arises. Anyone who chooses to worship a foreign deity is naturally making choices which have little if anything to do with the traditional morality of his homeland. But when there is a somewhat serviceable Sartarite solar deity (Elmal, natch), bringing Yelm in only complicates matters.
> The Gloranthans don't deny the existence of other powers, they just say
> that it is morally wrong to worship and even contact them.
This is a sweeping statement, largely true but capable of misleading the unwary. In part, Gloranthans may deny the veracity or validity or value of offering sacrifices or worship to otherworldly entities, either individually or as categories. Sometimes this is because of straightforward cultural prejudice (aka "sophistication"): "*WE* worship the great Imperial Sun God at his Temple in Raibanth, and will not stoop to dancing around in the desert flapping our arms to amuse this jumped-up Sun Hawk of the Praxian nomads." Or, "Through our mastery of the sorcerous arts, we can dominate every element, power and form within Glorantha. Why, then, should we abase ourselves before the gross spiritual entities adored by the Pagans, when our pure Wizardry offers us greater rewards for a lesser sacrifice?" And sometimes, it's a simple prohibition: "Thou shalt not suffer a (Witch, Riddler, Chaotic) to live!"
It needn't always be "morally wrong" to worship in a foreign, outlandish manner. It can be simply seen as "inefficient", "embarrassing", "politically inept", etc. Besides, strict obedience to the traditions of your own land seldom justifies your hanging, impalement, or other unpleasantness; introducing foreign novelties, barbarisms, unwonted sophistication and alien practices gives your opponents a HUGE target.
> In Glorantha, a worshiper of Death can kill his ennemies at 100 paces
> with a 3 points spell (ie sever spirit). A sorceror can create a basilisk
> who has the same power,
continually. *Not* a very good parallel.
> Thus while you may have one sun, you can have many different sun gods.
> Your typical Orlanthi of 3rd age Dragon Pass would not believe or under-
> stand this, but the God Learners did.
Certainly. Indeed, Monrogh's "Vision of the Many Suns" supports your suggestion that this would sound "odd" to your typical Orlanthi. Monrogh, a worshipper of Elmal (the Sartarite sun god), aware of the existence of other solar cults (in both Dara Happa and the Praxian Sun Dome Temple) travelled to distant Teshnos and witnessed the rituals of the Teshnan sun god, Somash. At this point, he had a mystical vision -- we're not sure what it was of, but it certainly helped him reconcile whatever religious turmoil he was going through. The end result was that he came to terms with the multiplicity of sun gods, and may even have assisted in the creation of a new one.
The Lunars, BTW, would have no problem whatsoever with the idea that the gods present different aspects (or "masks") to different worshippers -- and not just across cultures.
> My question from this how did the GLers come up with this (or whatever
> great realization they had)? We know the Jrusteli philosphers had
> Malkioni roots, but any speculation on what put them on the path to
> Runequest Sight etc.?
Not beyond what we already know -- cf. Wyrms Footprints for an interesting explanation of one God Learner methodology for investigating and abusing comparative mythology. (Frex, by studying several different Sun Gods, which as a far-flung naval empire they were uniquely well-placed, they were able to know or deduce enough of the "inner secrets" of any newly-encountered Sun God to do embarrassingly well against it in their "riddling contests", thereby stealing power from his cult for their own ends).
> Heroes have a big impact on Glorantha, so who were the God Learner Heroes?
Not known. Their kings were the "Flame Kings", descendents of Gerlant Flamesword (Arkat's putative son, the ruler of Seshnela at the end of the Crusade Against Chaos). The Second Age was not notably "heroic" (unlike the upcoming Hero Wars) -- in my own "History of Malkionism" (cf. my web page), the initial God Learner achievements were made as a committee. They were more an academic and philosophical "school", IMO, than a band of lusty sword-swinging red-handed reavers.
> First of all, do the different "Ages" of Glorantha reflect the different
> "versions" of RuneQuest?
No. Although the "Day the Magic Changed" is probably a tip-of-the-hat to RQ3, as are those duff Falangian Diamonds that you can't even give away nowadays. The primary setting for Gloranthan RuneQuest has always been the late Third Age. "Mortal Lords" (a First Age Seshnelan RQ2 supplement) never came out.
> Godlearners: I keep getting this horrible feeling that a group of four to
> eight PC's in a Greg run game just went way WAY out of hand, and the whole
> Godlearner Lashback came from Greg trying to regain control of his world.
Something like that. It's clear that Greg's attitude to the God Learners changed radically between their first appearance as noble scholars of comparative mythology (in Wyrms Footnotes: "Their influence upon my own notes has been immense") and their depiction as evil RuneQuest-playing rules-lawyers and power-gamers in RQ3's Genertela box.
Now, I *believe* the reason for this may have been that, subsequent to his first presentation of Gloranthan mythology (as a God-Learnt corpus), Greg changed his mind (surprise!) about the value of homogenised, mish-mash mythology (cf. afterword to the "Glorantha Book"), and was also a little distressed at the soulless, insensitive abuse of his creations by mechanistic game-players. The God Learners then become a handy stick to beat such rule- and world-abusers with: if any player starts acting up in your game, all good Gloranthans will recognise him as a God Learner wannabe and drive him out.
There's no indications I can recall that the God Learners themselves were inspired by any particular acts of mythic vandalism by RuneQuest players in a Chaosium campaign. I think their modern presentation is more a reaction to the "powergaming" tendency in the general gaming world than a "historic" record of the antics of some unlovely game-players. (Why would you want to preserve the memory of such things?)
The way the God Learners are presented today is a seminal reminder that even if you know all the RQ rules and read up all the cults and learn all their secrets, you still can't take Glorantha for granted and abuse it any way you want. It doesn't work that way.
> I like the concept of "Herogates", rituals used to enter the Heroplane.
Like the Six Stones HQ Ritual?
In a sense, any temple or holy spot could be a "Hero Gate", I suppose.
Nick
:::: web: <http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Nick_Brooke>
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