> You say that Glorantha arose from chaos, [Simon] states that they are
> different manifestations of some other precreated state...
Not so. Simon stated that "the world of Nature was created from the precreated firmament, of which chaos is a manifestation." That is, Chaos is a manifestation of what Simon calls "the precreated firmament", not that Chaos is a manifestation of the world of Nature. This is clear from the syntax of his paragraph. Chaos is a manifestation of a precreated state (Emptiness, the Void, the Primordial Ooze?); creation is something altogether different.
> (which for some unknown reason is unnatural)
If we define Nature as "that which exists within the created world of Glorantha", then Chaos (or indeed the precreated Ylem, call it what you will) is ipso facto unnatural, as it exists outside of that created world. Most Gloranthans do so define Nature.
> In fact, he implies that interactions with chaos are always destructive,
> never constructive.
I think he states rather than implies this. So do I, and so would most Gloranthans. (Exceptions as noted in my previous post).
I will assume you have followed the references to www.glorantha.com in my last post, as you did ask for them. Having read these, what part of our (my & Simon's) position is unclear?
> Then you seem to say that nature only exists within Glorantha, which is
> patently false to all us here on Earth.
Er, Morgan, this is the Gloranthan Digest, and we are talking about Gloranthan theology (cosmology, whatever). As far as Gloranthans know, Nature only exists within Glorantha; that which is outside Glorantha, is Chaos. The Gloranthans have no experience of other worlds with which they could appreciate your point.
> (I really dislike your use of the term nature, which seems to actually
> mean "Glorantha" in your definition)
Correct.
Arachne Solara, Goddess of Nature, orchestrated the Great Compromise which brought modern Glorantha into being, stabilising the world that had almost been destroyed in Godtime with all of the surviving gods on one side, and Chaos on the other. It seems reasonable to assume a dichotomy between Nature and Chaos on this basis alone. The other term some folk use where I would say 'nature' is 'Law'. Again, the opposition to Chaos is implicit. (I shun "Law vs. Chaos" because it leads to vilely meaningless constructions -- "Storm Bull is a very lawful cult", that kinda thing).
> If Glorantha == nature, and there's Chaos in Glorantha, then sorry, it's
> natural. Are you stating that the dragonsnail in front of my character
> is on some other plane of existance, not "of this world", so it can't
> hurt me?
Obviously not. I am stating that the dragonsnail in front of you has been tainted by forces from some other plane of existence, which were "not of this world". It is as "natural" as any other giant two-headed fire-breathing pond-snail would be.
> From what I've read, it was the Great Compromise decided that Chaos was
> "not of the world". (e.g. CoT). However, this is pretty much like the
> gods decreeing that pi = 3. The Gods can say a thing, but that don't make
> it true.
But it *was* true. There *was* no Chaos within Glorantha until the Gods War began (when Orlanth slew Yelm, the fabric of creation weakened, chaos entered into the world, and the Devil was born of Ragnaglar and Thed). When the Great Compromise ended Godtime, the Gods did their best to lock Chaos outside Glorantha again. They reaffirmed their common enmity to Chaos. They didn't "pick on" Chaos -- it had, after all, almost destroyed Glorantha.
> If Chaos is "not of the world", why did so damn much of it survive the
> Compromise to eat my characters? :-)
Follow the link immediately after the CoT Cosmology to the first bit of CoT's History (paragraphs beginning, "The chaos things surviving the Darkness and Dawning..."). I also commend to you my Net metaphor, first posted almost a year ago and here excavated for your reading pleasure:
"The gods collectively hold the edges of Arachne Solara's Net, as they unanimously agreed to do, and Chaos is trapped within it. If one or more of the gods lets go of the Net ('exercising their free will'), then Chaos can escape through the disruption. All Chaos within Glorantha is 'trapped' by the Great Compromise, by definition. And Chaos ouside Glorantha can only enter the world by simultaneously entering the Net which the gods are holding."
If the Gods weren't holding onto the Net, those Dragonsnails would be a whole lot scarier...
Regards, Nick
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