>I don't think the Lunars are capable of fielding enough professional
>soldiers to have numerical 1:1 against the orlanthi. A third of an
>Orlanthi clan will fight in the fyrd, even more, when they are defending
>their tula.
The Empire can field more troops in one place than the Orlanthi could hope to field due to logistical advantage. They also have greater absolute numbers of troops than the entire population of Sartar, if you count garrison forces and House troops.
>The logistical problems involved will keep the empire from sending huge
armies all the >way to Sartar.
Logistically the Empire has the road net and supply base to have 20,000+ regulars in the Pass (outside Tarsh) and they have the resources to supply even more should they wish it. The issue is not supply, but will and other drains on their resources when considering Imperial power projection.
>But when we have a sensible match of about equal strength, I'd say the
>chanses are about 50/50. If the lunar morale holds (outside the Glowline),
Firstly this "Morale loss outside the Glowline" is a partial myth when one discusses the Imperial Army. Over 70% of the Imperial regular regiments are not worshippers of Lunar cults. It is quite feasible for the Imperial Army to field a large force (say 10,000 men) with no "Lunar only" worshipping regiments in it at ALL. Large numbers of the Provincial Army Highlander units and others are Orlanthi or even Yelmalions. There are three Yelmalion Phalanxes in the Provincial OB and half a dozen Highlander units who are "acceptable" Orlanthi (worshipping Doburdan or accepted hero cults that the Empire has subsumed within the Odayla the Bear grouping of aspects)
So only PURE Lunar units, of which there are perhaps two dozen, would suffer morale loss outside the Glowline. And even there, as can be seen in the 7Ms collective, this can be removed with correct preparation, or better yet, the company of the Bat.
>they may be able to stand the orlanthi charge, and carry the day. If the
>charge manages to break the Lunar line, then the orlanthi will carry the
>day, for they are in their element in a free for all melee, where the
>Lunar soldiers are out of their element.
Uuurgh. Which Imperial soldiers are out of their element in melee?
Not the Grim Soliders who are all Tarnils swordmasters, all 250 of which are equivalent to an Orlanthi clan champion in sword skill.
Not the Queens Regiment of Knights, all born and trained to fight as individuals while ahorse in heavy armour.
Not the Lasadag Lions who fight as a Pride and can swarm even heavy cavalry charge to death.
Not the Char-un warbanders who live and breath the hunt of the steppe and the call to war and grow up on _individual_ feats of arms and supply no less than five regiments to the Empires Cavarly Corps.
Not the Feathered Axes of the Imperial Bodyguard who were once a Free Company and who all bear a 2 handed axe and fight in loose formation.
Not the Iceland Starclubs who are Maul armed and love nothing better than to kill dinosaurs with their maces, or better yet some nice heavy cavalry to crush.
Not the Nest Thieves, who hail from Oronin and steal Royal Eagle feathers for their helms and fight in the woods as if born to them (as most were).
Not the Steel Sword Legion which fought the entire Imperial Army for 28 days and only surrendered when relief was impossible.
There are many more examples I could give. Phalanxes form only a small part of the Imperial OB after the Jannisor rebellion and most of the Line regiments were transferred to the Garrison Army after they were found to be loyal to Dara Happa and the Elmexdros tradition rather than Takenegi. Look at the diversity of the Empires culture and then look at the types of units they will raise. They are not uniform at all and many of them excell in rough terrain or in melee.
>In Sartar the Lunars have to keep their formations against sudden
>stormwind and hale, flying and lightning chucking orlanthi weaponthanes
>and even warchariots. I wouldn't bet on them if it wouldn't be for the
>college of magic.
And the Orlanthi have to contend with Urvairinus worshippers Spitting Down winds, Sky Captain warbands appearing on Star Beams from the Sky, Char-un raiders who can ride the path of Kargzant, Saggitus followers who bring the Bow of Lukarius to the battle and as for Chariots, the Empire can bring the Deretenite war Chariots to bear of the Golden Axles of Raibanth or for cavalry they can field the charge of Humakti Knight Killers, ordered lancers, loose Hyalorings, dragoons and skirmishers of all kinds.
Add into this the Tarnils ability of creating a Vexilla and thus forming a solid combined arms force with a unified command, then they are hard to beat in battle by anyone in Glorantha - period.
>:My answers are: The Lunars. Because they have far superior unit training
>:and discipline.
>Discipline (greek style) is just one way to win. The orlanthi passion and
>fierceness makes them daunting opponenets. The real problem the orlanthi
>have facing a large, unified enemy is that they are far from unified. It's
>easy for the lunars to knock out a clan (or even a tribe) at a time, even
>if they couldn't take on the whole kingdom.
But they did take on the whole kingdom and they smashed it with relative ease. Within a very, very short period they stormed not just the main regions of Sartar but all its fortified places too, including the Gloranthan equivalent of Masada - Boldhome. A mere tribe is nothing to the Empire. Tatius can have one destroyed within weeks of the order being issued by simply shuffling garrison units.
>:If the Orlanthi leader can get the Lunars into broken terrain *and* break
>:up the unit integrity than the Orlanthi have a much better chance. *But*
>:the Lunars can get to enough settlements without this happening. Why do
>:you think the Lunars conquered Sartar and Tarsh and have an empire?
>One of the two will spell doom for the Lunars, I think, with equal forces.
The Empire is very difficult to beat in direct battle, particularly with equal forces. The Orlanthi advantage in battle is _heroic_. ie if one applies the basic principles of dislocation theory to a battle between Orlanthi and Imperial forces, the _strength_ of the Imperials is their cohesion and their combined arms capability. The strength of the Orlanthi is their ability to manifest through herofoming some incredibly powerful individual heroes of gods on the battlefield and their inherant mobilty.
The Empire has rituals to match or nullify the heroic factor, but this is a matter of time. If they are prepared then the Orlanthi are going to have problems. Conversely, the Orlanthi can work to attack the Empires forces with prepared heroes when they are unprepared to deal with them - as a result they can crack the line and shatter the cohesion which gives the Imperials their strength.
What you have in effect, in DP warfare, is a constant game of paper, rock scissors.
Look at Mordens defence - it worked because he was prepared and they were not. Applying ones strength to the enemies weakness to avoid their strength is the heart of dislocation theory. The Orlanthi win in 1625 by doing this in a huge way.
If you want examples of battles I've written out, check Wesleys Glorantha site for the Orders of battle I did for Pennel Ford in 1624 and Milran. The Gwandor saga shows the battles from the participants POV and has maps of the forces and their dispositions on the day, the OBs show their basic HW skills as well as a WRG 7th Edition classification for my own uses as GM.
Martin Laurie
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