>It seems natural
>that this would happen; that the collective would become an empire, run by
>those interested in running an empire. Whether you class this as cynical,
>corrupt, more sedate, pragmatic, sustainable , Here-and-Now, or as a
>confusing mixture of any and all of these is probably a matter for Gloranthan
>historians to debate, or for Imperial Age Narrators to discover in their
>games.
My thoughts exactly (or, at least, what I am coming around to). Why should the EWF be more monolithic than any other Gloranthan group?
Peter Metcalfe says:
me:
>>Can't speak about Byzantiumwith any confidence. The Egyptian
>>Empire in the Middle Kingdon declined because Akhenaten was more
>>interested in religious than political matters, though. I'm sure that
>>decline was attributed to "moral failings" by some of his
>>contemporaries.
>
>Er, apart from noting that Akhenaton was New Kingdom and
>that the decline was temporary, how is this relevant?
Oops. That's what I get for responding in a hurry....
>I am pointing out that an empire can collapse for reasons other
>than "moral rot" that you think must be the cause, and you
>respond with an example of an empire in temporary retreat
>with the observation that someone might have thought it
>was "moral rot" (an overtly subjective judgement on
>Akhenaton)?
My point was that an empire can collapse (or weaken) because it is too busy dealing with religious/philosophical ideas to tend to the political. No doubt, people on both sides of the debate accuse the other of causing the disaster by moral rot. It doesn't matter that it's true or not, they can still claim it. Of couse, in Glorantha, moral rot can destroy a government by undermining its magic.
>> >Are we to believe that while the EWF was victorious
>> >in conquering Dara Happa, it was still true to its founding aims
>> >while barely a generation later, it had sunk to corruption and
>> >depravity to such an extent that it was incapable of suppressing
>> >revolts?
>
>>Unless the conquest of Dara Happa was done for the sake of
>>conquest and justified by appealing to grand plans. Just
>>because they are quoting scripture doesn't mean they are honest
>>about it.
>
>What a odd thing to say. Is every gloranthan who acts according
>to scripture cynical? If not, then why must the actions of the
>EWF and everybody involved in it be so interpreted in that manner?
Sigh. They don't _have_ to be, but they _can_ be. The EWF's success against Dara Happa is not proof that they were wholeheartedly following the draconic path. The Soviet Union's military and political successes and failures from 1940-1980 tell us little about whether the USSR's leadership were devout Communists or not. All the EWF's victory tells us is that they had, at that time, some edge over Dara Happa (more efficient of their power, more devious, a better army, whatever).
As I said in my last message, I believe that a variety of factors contributed to the EWF's decline. I'm unclear why you reject the "moral rot/cynical user" element in the mix.
>> >Considering that the EWF had instruction from Godunya, I don't
>> >see how the EWF can be said to have missed the plot entirely.
>> >They met their end through being stabbed in the back by their
>> >supposed allies and not through an intrinsic flaw of their
>> >philosophy.
>
>>The EWF had instruction from Godunya? I thought that was
>>Kralori propaganda. Since the EWF precedes Godunya by a century or
>>more, he can't have been an instigator of the EWF, can he?
>
>But I didn't say Godunya instigated the EWF, did I? I
>said the EWF had instruction from him. It is perfectly
>possible for an existing institution to receive instruction
>from someone well after it has been founded.
I suppose you didn't. Are there any EWF-centric documents that support the claim of Godunya's involvement? RM mentions that ShangHsa had a hand in the pie, and that the EWF suffered for it; I find it a little hard (and disappointing to boot) to think that the EWF was just a puppet state of Kralorela (unknowingly, evidently). That's worse than them being a bunch of cynics.
>>So, if the Dragons just stabbed the EWF in the back, why did
>>they do it?
>
>The Dragons didn't stab the EWF in the back, the Dragonewts did.
OK, so what was the Dragonewt's beef?
TERRA INCOGNITA says:
>Peter Larcen:
>>Obduren the Flyer is
>>the only one I know for sure actually reached the ultimate goal of
>>escape from the transient world), so I assume their draconic
>>knowledge was flawed in some way compared to that of Kralorela.
>
>Even Ingolf could barely reach Capertine "Reincarnation to another Body".
>Did he reincarnate to Dragonewt or other Orlanth-Dragonfriendi Body in
>another age?
I don't think so -- Ingolf died a failure (although not a particularly bad one). Reincarnation to continue the path isn't really a failure, just a delay.
Peter Larsen
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