I'll add another piece of pro-"Black" Age evidence : the fact that the Theyalans call Primal Chaos the "Predark". This suggests to me that the elemental progression of Ages myth isn't * just * a GL invention.
Not that this is crucially important ... and it could be a _modern_ Theyalan word from GL influence too.
> > > The Black Age is pure in itself : a remnant of pure pre-Blue Age
> > > Glorantha, lnked to Ultimate Being, uncorrupted by subsequent
> > > upheavals (but not previous ones) ;
> >
> > This sounds to me to be _in effect_ an analogue of the Green Age, then.
> > (i.e., it's the uz "version", or understanding of the "creation is
> > on-going, things aren't yet meaningfully differentiated" part of myth).
> > I don't know if it would be meaningful to say it was a "part of" the Green
> > Age, or "parallel to" it...
> >
> > (I know that the sequence of creation is, in strictly elemental terms,
> > Black -> Blue -> Green, ... SNIP ... Though I don't know that
> > Greg has even been specific
> > as to whether there are a discrete number of HeroPlanes... Or even if
> > they
> > are arranged linearly... argh...)
Hmmmm, as a qualifier (and as bit of a change-of-mind), I'd say that the only one of the basic 5 elements that can actually be described as being issued from a previous elemental mix is Storm, and that there's something necessarily irreductible to each of the other elements (and therefore, to each of the Elemental Ages) that precludes any literal interpretation of the GL model from being capital-T True, even in the terms of the GL model itself as presented in the sources.
I now think that the most excruciating Godlearnerism would have believed that the Elemental Cosmogony and order of creation of the Elements is actually a Myth representing in which order the Elements mixed (or crashed) together to create the world as they knew it : so, first Darkness and Water mysteriously and unfathomably flowed out and in to each other ; then Earth joined/emerged/separated from the mix ; etc : but that there are Primal Earth and Sun "Ages", themselves as ineffable and Unique as the Blue or "Black" Ages being discussed.
Of course, this view maintains the "Black" Age in its position of special uniqueness (and therefore hypotheticness) as related to the GL Elemental cosmogony, as an unmixed (or whatever) Age, not a "mixed" one like the Blue and subsequent Ages. Take it or leave it.
Greg :
> > Here is the key:
> > NO ONE can understand anything before the creation of people.
> > Sure, something existed before People. But no one can go back thre because
> > individual consciousness did not exist.
Hm, actually I partially disagree with Greg here : I agree that no-one can UNDERSTAND anything before the creation of people, but I don't agree when Greg says no-one can go back there. Strange meditation practises can IMO take you to places where not only does individual consciousness not exist (Green Age Mind), but even Collective Consciousness nor any perception of Being whatsoever (Black Age Mind) : but you CAN come back from that place, even though you certainly can't bring any memories back with you : you can _deduce_ that you've been there (because the world around you will have moved on, and because something ineffable inside your own soul may be in a state of unprecedented harmony), but (as Greg suggests) you cannot prove this as a fact. Similar meditation and "deep" HeroQuesting practises are a core "mystic" element of many Gloranthan religions : although only those that accepted the GL/Theyalan pre-Ages model could believe that the practises can take you to the pre-Ages.
Weird Blue Age HeroQuests (non-meditative) are also a * possibility * IMO, contrary to Greg's suggestion, but why anyone would wish to play out the strange antics of formless blobs and how they flow into and out of each other is quite beyond me, particularly given that antics such as these would likely lead to a general flushing of character sheets down the loo ... merpeople HQ campaign _exceptions_ duly noted.
Knowing a Great Secret may (or may not) also be a method for going to those places (coincidentally, out of the game).
Julian Lord
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End of Glorantha Digest
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