> To me, it is a GL balls-up.
> The volcano worhsippers did not assign gender to the volcano.
> The GL did, at different times and for different reasons.
> Different authors, so to speak.
Thanx : made my day ... :-)
Peter :
> It would be wise to note which books said what.
Definitely.
> The Cult of Caladra and Aurelion describes Caladra as female. In Tales #7
> and Gods of Glorantha, this is described as a God Learner cult.
>
> The Broken Council Guidebook has the natives worshipping a male Caladril
> while the Glorantha: Intro describes the Volcano as a male god called either
> Caladra or Calandra (which wasn't in my submitted draft or Roderick's edition).
Yes, and there's some more info scattered here and there ...
> Since names can change over time - Arkat becomes Argrath while Raibamus
> becomes Raibamuth and then Raiba - the variation in Caladra's name over two
> millennia is trivial.
I thought about that too, but unfortunately I was taught something about the rules of phonetic evolution by a herd of mad French Intellectuals, and Caladril > Calandra is AFAIK impossible, and Caladril > Caladra is highly dubious (Caladril > Galadriel is FAR more likely, as an amusing aside)
OTH Lodril > any of the forms (except Vestkarthen and Aurelion) _would_ work.
Hmmmmm ....
> More important is the change in sex.
Or according to Greg's answer, the _attribution_ of one (or two).
> IMO Caladra is only seen as female
> when she is worshipped as one of the Twins. Outside of the Twins cult,
I agree with this, but
> Caladra is unambiguously male.
not with this. I'm beginning to think that the male/female duality is originally a troll interpretation, later taught by the OOO to his GL allies, who used it to such amusing effect ...
After all, the basic shape of the Shadow Plateau, with it's Volcanic Styx Grotto, is that of an inverted volcano, and a big hole leading into the Underworld, and inner depths of Gata.
A "female" volcano.
Or OTOH the shape of a giant penis from the POV of a little spermatazoid.
The place where Lodril brandished his Great Spear (and had it cut off for him by Argan Argar ... )
<sigh> Why O Why is TT#MRO so dismally MIA ??!!
> The change in sex can be attributed to
> the God Learners in their attempt to fit a male/female duality on the
> existing Sky and Earth theme.
I agree.
Stu :
> I think a problem is that there are a great many answers.
Actually, that looks more like a _solution_.
> CALADRALAND (pre-God Learner):
> Which was the original god from an *indigenous* perspective... Caladra or
> Caladril? I forget.
Probably Calandra, from the POV of what a contemporary local would believe.
BTW, I think that you'd better start from a Golden Age perspective, then move on from there through the mythic Ages until the Dawn and History.
> I'm not ignoring Peter's answer as much as it might seem
> here, as around the time of the Broken Council and Palangio's invasion, was
> there an initial attempt to link this indigenous God with Lodril, before the
> God Learners came about?
Yes, IMO. Remember that the OOO's particular speciality was Unity, and that the Unity Council was basically his original idea.
Dawn Age Dragon Pass culture was not unlike a kind of proto-God-Learnerism IMO ...
> Was this indigenous god chained by Argan Argar from the Caladralanders'
> viewpoint, or is this myth only held by the Trolls?
Yes, no.
This event took place so early in the cosmogonic cycles, that it's the next best thing to a universal myth.
(Hmmm, wonder why the GLs were so interested ... ???)
Look at the Zugorteg myth in Drastic: Darkness for a quick troll version ...
> Or was it some form of
> Lodril chained by Argan Argar, and it is only through Lodril's later
> identification with the volcano god that we think this indigenous volcano
> god was subdued?
No, not IMO, that's definitely where it happened ...
> CALADRALAND (pseudo-God Learner):
> This original god is taken by the God Learners, and monkeyed around with.
> The older 'male' [though Greg speaks against this] god is put into the
> background and identified as Lodril. Perhaps Moray and Telerio specifically
> spread the 'Lodril is chained' idea to push people into worshipping their
> new construct.
I am beginning to believe that the OOO performed many HeroQuests (GodQuests ?) to weaken the primal power of the original myth, so that instead of a story about Lodril's castration (the backlash from which could be pretty disastrous** for the OOO and his trolls, who live, basically, in the vent of an active volcano), we have one about Lodril/Cala(n)dra/il being chained for a year a day, and then set free (AKA told to push off to another volcano, and please don't come back).
The GL's tamperings would have reinforced this even further, by making it so that the Vent is one volcano with two "twin" gods ...
> The Volcano Twins are Caladra [female], who takes elements from the older
> indigenous god, and is twinned with Aurelion [male*], a Jrusteli earth god.
As an extra twist to the tale, the OOO sent Uz colonists to Jrustela, and I would imagine travelled there himself to set up the colony for them. These trolls were subject to the Middle Sea Empire, of which the Kingdom of Night itself was an ally, but not a part of (the KoN joined the EWF instead).
Did the OOO require GL magical services in return ?
> Presently, Caladra [male] is the dominant god of the Vent region, and
> worship is also occasionally given to Lodril, his father.
Lodril is a Dara Happan god, and although he is known of (from the Council days), I don't think he is worshipped locally ... but I may be wrong.
Arguments to convince me ?
> TROLLS (of the Shadow Plateau):
> Do you think the Trolls would see the situation as followed in the majority
> of Caladraland, but view Lodril as imprisoned,
No, troll myths declare that the volcano god was enslaved by Argan Argar for a "year and a day", and then freed.
> IS LODRIL/CALADRIL/[INDIGENOUS VOLCANO GOD] FREE (dependent on
> mythocentricity...)?
> Sources vary...
Not if you interpret them carefully, they don't ... at least, not on THIS particular issue ... ;-)
Julian Lord
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End of Glorantha Digest
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