Bell Digest v930313

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 01:16:15 +0100
From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Digest Subscriptions)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: The RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 13 Mar 1993

This is a semi-automated digest, sent out once per day (if any
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The RuneQuest Daily is a spin-off of the RuneQuest Digest and deals
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---------------------

From: MAB@SAVAX750.RUTHERFORD.AC.UK (Mystic Musk Ox)
Subject: RE: The RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 11 Mar 1993
Message-ID: <9303121425.AA01656@Sun.COM>
Date: 12 Mar 93 11:36:00 GMT

Spells
------

The spell spirit POW of 28 comes from GoG, under the SpellTeaching
description, where the spirit has a POW of 1d3 per point of the spell
to be taught. I assume that the spirits in the monster book are just
random 'wandering monster' spirits ie average types. There isn't any
reason why there shouldn't be bigger ones...

I've always felt a bit unhappy with the SpellTeaching description,
after all, you are coughing up your hard-earned Lunars for the spell,
the cult SHOULD guarantee you get the spell. I'm dubious about getting
POW ticks for learning spells this way, after all there is no risk at
all, the spirit is under the control of the priest all the time.

Re: getting POW up by buying spells every week, no-one ever had the
available cash to do that sort of thing. No-one ever dropped their POW
significantly for us to feel that POW usage was being abused.

Priests, sorcerors and shaman making magic items etc: Aren't they
spending their time doing this for their spiritual dependants?  i.e.
Just because they make 5 magic items a year, they may not have the use
of those items.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Buckley		Virtue through Implementation,
			Purity through Compilation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------

From: flammang@heart.med.uth.tmc.edu (James Flammang)
Subject: General Discussion Topics (Lately)
Message-ID: <9303121429.AA08461@heart.med.uth.tmc.edu>
Date: 12 Mar 93 14:29:49 GMT


RE: Initiation Rites

It was in RQ2's Apple Lane where the "Battle Circle" initiation rites
were described.  There are other, perhaps less violent, ideas out
there too, ranging from fraternity pranks to scavenger hunts.  This
last is always a good way to get a first adventure started.  Send the
players after something fairly rare (condor eggs a la Borderlands)...

I think it's a pretty good idea to elaborate on the old Charisma +
Power formula for initiation into cults.  That always struck me as a
bit bland.

RE: RQ2, 3, 4?

This is the first time I've ever heard of RQ4.  I still use RQ2 most
of the time.  I liked the new combat in RQ3, but I felt that it was
getting too complex.  Keeping track of fatigue and all was just too
much bookkeeping.  I didn't care much for the RQ3 magic system.
Sorcery was a neat idea, but I felt that all forms of magic were
watered down.  I didn't like having to roll POW X 5 to cast a spell,
too prejudiced against lo POW characters.  I prefer the RQ2 way of if
you have it, cast it.

I agree that RQ's best strength is the campaign.  Glorantha is the
best world out there, and I always like seeing new material (even
though I don't agree with all of it).  I'd really like to see a
version of Nomad Gods back in print, I always ran a Prax oriented
campaign.

RE: Lunar Characters

I never portrayed Lunars as "bad guys", or even chaos.  They were
mostly just law & order, and since most adventurers, Storm Bulls, and
Orlanthi are anti-social rogues at best, and psychopathic murderers at
worst, it was only natural that the Lunars clamp down on them from
time to time.  But Lunars were often employers or allies in my game.

I did have a player run a broo once, a cat headed broo.  It was a neat
idea, but he kept getting into all kinds of trouble.  I've also had
players run Lunars, but again, they were usually at least on the edges
of the law, if not worse.

Any more comments?  Any more news from the Hero Wars?  I always like
hearing other gamers ideas.

	Jim Flammang
	flammang@heart.med.uth.tmc.edu

---------------------

From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Entropy needs no maintenance)
Subject: Damage and retransmission
Message-ID: <01GVP9GU105E000ZZU@UG.EDS.COM>
Date: 11 Mar 93 16:30:32 GMT

The purpose of damage in combat
===============================

>> What's this about pitching damage.  Are you saying that damage should
>> be fiddled so that players get injured a little bit in every combat?

			/\  (characters surely :-) )

No, more that they actually get to make tactical choices (retreat,
surrender, rout) rather than suddenly having no option other than
bleed quietly (or perhaps also bleed noisily) if the opponent does a
lot of damage, or persist in mindless slaughter if little; the slow
trickle of hit points gives the players an imperative to make
decisions before they become ineffective in combat.  It could be
argued that fatigue performs this function in real life, but in a game
context, having the same trickle of fatigue when fighting differently
threatening opponents lacks drama.

My preference is for characters to stay around long enough to be
developed (remembering all too well D&D-style characters not being
even given names until reaching ~3rd level, by which time some
survivability hade been gained), and wish to avoid killing/maiming
them; on the other hand, wimping out the opponents every time is not
satisfying (and even then two trollkin did succeed in offing Rurik).

>> (-: It's a feature not a bug :-)

According to IBM, a feature is just a bug you've documented :-)

>> Great Parry and Axe Trance make you almost invincible.

IMHO, Great Parry is just an expensive way of turning your shield
parry % into a dodge %, but still taking knockback (which dodge
doesn't leave you vulnerable to)!

BTW, don't forget that the Shield of Arran is an Orlanth magic weapon
cult too, so it's not just the mad axe murderesses you have to worry
about there...

		=		=		=		=

Nothing I have sent for the past week seems to have shown; despite
multiple transmissions, so here we go again, one more time.

RE: The RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 08 Mar 1993

Lunars
======

>>  I see the Lunar culture as very much Roman

Like most Gloranthan cultures, they don't seem to label very well as
just ONE culture with minor changes - the names are Greek, the style
more Persian, but in the expansive empire, yes, Rome is a good model.

>>  common retired soldiers (who make it to the ripe old age of 25 or so)

Roman military terms were 20+ years.  The survivors who were allotted
farms were 40+.  Retiring your troops at ~25 would reduce your
available manpower below that of your opponents.

>> Seven Mothers is in many ways a cop-out, they are too easily the
>> Lightbringers in reverse.

Interesting insight; and one that could be made more of, to give the
cults(s) some distinctive character.  Too often they turn out as
badge-engineered versions of the originals.


HeroQuesting
============

Yes, a heroquest is a ritual reenactment of some mythic event - but
with a purpose.  Greg is fond of telling about the ritual reenactment
of the hunt in this-world primitive cultures, which act to prepare the
young men for the reality of the hunt.

In a Gloranthan context, the reenactment is surely with the intent of
being more able to follow the path of ones god - so lesser quests
might merely be things that result in - all going well - checks in the
skills that are appropriate; and could be entirely within the inner
world.  The greater rewards would require deeper quests, backed with a
more intense ritual - that needed to project oneself into the mythic
space.

>> Don't hold your breath for HeroQuest

I still treasure fondly the Chaosium winter80/spring81 catalogue with
HeroQuest listed as a summer '81 release; every time I hear Greg talk
about it, it'll be "ready next year".  I say, roll your own, since the
official one will never appear.

RE: The RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 3 Mar 1993 (something is fragile on our
outward gateway - *again*)

RQ3 and fantasy Europe
=======================
It just goes to show that there's a market segment even worse off than
the Glorantha enthusiasts - lacking stuff to repackage, I think
_Vikings_ must have been the only nod ever made in that direction.

Heroquests
==========
In the last Gloranthan campaign I played in, attendance at the various
cult High Holy days was made more than a "the party has to be at X
location on day Y" requirement by playing through short rituals that
touched on the myth of the cult.
	Ones I recall were:

- Babeester Gor - fight against Darkness (no official source; but a
likely battle during the Godtime; recall the summons that an Earth
priestess can make on an Orlanthi against darkness).  This turned out
to be an easy way of follwing the geasa of "Use all MP but one on the
cult holy day" and "Never flee from Darkness"

- Babeester Gor - the Healers Valley (mentioned briefly in the
Prospaedia, as I recall; the motif is lifted directly from the
Egyptian Sekhmet) Drinking the blood brew gave a +1 con if a CON*5%
was failed.  For obvious reasons this would be a rarely performed
ritual (it would be about as popular as the lead cross path Humakti)

- Yelmalio - reconciliation with Orlanth & the founding of the SunDome
(this well predated King of Sartar, as you can tell) - a ritual
performed by our version of the Dragon Pass SunDome to honour the
invitation of Prince Sartar to settle in his kingdom.  This involved a
fight against Darkness, assisted by an Orlanthi representative.

and there were probably a couple of others.  The GM involved might be
able to tell more (Are you listening out there, Neil? :-) )

Learning the Ropes
==================

> I wanted to slowly introduce them to the rules without
> bogging them down

Just like the usual story "You don't learn the game by reading the
rules, someone else has to teach you".  A good technique for any sort
of learning (work related skills as well as various game systems).
Learning by doping allows you to learn from your mistakes - because
you actually get to make some, which theorising rarely does.

> but I left out fatigue

Certainly this is the mechanic which gives least reward for effort
expended - I've yet to see a system for this that wasn't more trouble
than it was worth.

> the fact that I didn't use all the rules doesn't matter, they enjoyed
> themselves and that's what will keep them coming back for more.

Hear, hear!  This is all a hobby so should be pursued for
entertainment.  As such games as _Amber_ point out, you can throw out
all the rules and still do this thing well; so it doen't really matter
if you just pick and choose the bits that you want to use to offload
some of the decision making into published algorithms.


Toy soldiers
=============

> Can anyone recomend a good source of figures for RuneQuest.

Though the fantasy boom has changed the availability, you should still
be able to find some of the figures used for Ancients wargaming.  The
Minifigs range of wargaming figures has been the source of some of the
better of my collection (if you can still get hold of them).

Of course this does restrict you to warrior male humans...


The naming of things
====================
> I found a cool random name generating program...I didn't remove any bad
> names.

One of the better ones - the first such I enountered produced such
wonderful names as Akiampzulkettytyviu or Wafioytycuftycuy.

Those Good Guy Lunars (and alternate futures)
=============================================

I've always been one of those awkward types who goes against the
grain, so have been rooting for the Lunars (civilising the Barbarians,
in the manner of Rome) - despite clear hints that they were destined
to lose.  This hasn't been translated into play, since the paucity of
source material means that one has to make up most of the details from
scratch ( => might as well run your own world altogether).

My hoped-for outcome of the HeroWars was the final collapse of the
Orlanthi support "on the ground" leaving Orlanth trapped between
taming by the Lunar way or doing the Storm thing & breaking free.  The
storm pinwheel tears itself free from the circling of the oceans,
concentrates and roars up through Dragon Pass, to meet the Red Moon
coming the other way (cf. Dwarf prophecy of a crimson wonder rolling
across the sky).

Time breaks down with Orlanth's repudiation of the Compromise, until
the storms abate, the clods clear, and a white moon rolls along the
SunPath.  meanwhile, on the ground the Daughter, or Jar-eel, as
primary representative of the Red Lunar powers consolidates control
over an exhausted Lunar Empire and surrounding provinces.  This peace
endures some considerable while (=> not suitable for adventuring).

At this point little cross-links synapse and the linguistic closeness
of the Lunar capital of Glamour, and the Lady's citadel of Charm in
Glen Cook's _Black Company_ novels suggests an idea for conflict; a
three way between western sorcerers, the Moon Lady, and local
independence movements.

Demographics
============

> When RQ mentions city sizes, does that include the number of children, or
> is that only the number of adults?

A good question, though one that you might well make up your own
response to.  I'd peg it at the same sampling as is used when we are
told that e.g "at this time London had a population of 50,000" or
whatever; and use that comparison to make analogies with history.

---------------------

From: b_kondalski@vssi.trw.com (Brian J. Kondalski)
Subject: RE: Playing Strange Critters
Message-ID: <9303121509.AA09692@Sun.COM>
Date: 12 Mar 93 15:11:21 GMT

> From: rog@insignia.co.uk (Roger_Nolan 336)
> Subject: RE: White Wall / Lunars
> Message-ID: <290.9303101050@incautius.insignia.co.uk>
> Date: 10 Mar 93 10:50:58 GMT
> 
> Anyone out there played Broos? Ogres? Walktapi!?

Ogres are slightly common in some campaigns I've been in.  Personally
I've played a Lhankor Mhy broo, and I've seen others play Humakt
broos.  I was even involved with a campaign that was based on the
players being Chaos cult members.  So as a result we had a group with
2 broos, a scorpion man, an ogre, a were bear, and a chaotic giant.
Aren't walktapi normally un-intelligent (but then again, we had an
intelligent one as a nemesis in a campaign I am still in, someday
we'll get him).  Anyone out there ever play a dwarf that wasn't a
heretic (ie, didn't leave Mostali)?

Brian J. Kondalski      b_kondalski@vssi.trw.com

---------------------

From: ringrose@ai.mit.edu (Robert Ringrose)
Subject: Shaman
Message-ID: <9303121818.AA17318@fibula>
Date: 12 Mar 93 18:18:04 GMT

How does a Shaman go about getting spells?

The obvious way is summon spell spirit, then spirit combat.  This has
a reasonably large chance of summoning something nasty, and a very
small chance of summoning the spell you're looking for unless you've
found it once already and gotten its name.  (which reminds me, how
_does_ one randomly determine what spell it is?  Some spells should be
more common than others)

But a shaman can discorporate - are there spell spirits just wandering
around out there if a shaman looks?  What else is out there?  How long
does it take to find something, and (approximately) what are the
risks?

Are there more rules for the shaman written up somewhere that I simply
haven't found?

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ai.mit.edu

There's always one more bu6

---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: The RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 12 Mar 1993
Message-ID: <9303122052.AA02466@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 12 Mar 93 20:52:50 GMT


Regarding spell spirits: I preferred the RQ II system with variable
spells bought in single steps, which gave a quadratic rather than
linear cost function.  The advantages of big variable spells are so
great the cost should be non-linear - also, look at cost functions in
real life.  Top-of-the-line items and services are many, many times as
expensive as their ordinary counterparts.

I also like the system in Vikings.

If we want to keep spell spirits, then I might recommend the system we
used in our campaigns: the power of the spirit for an N point spell is
the sum of the first N numbers:

  Spell Points  POW
  1		1
  2		3 = 2 + 1
  3		6 = 3 + 2 + 1
  4		10
  5		15
  6		21
  7		28
  8		36
  9		45
 10		55

Thus the normal limit for spells (for normal people) is 4 points, like
in RQ II.  6 is about the practical limit, and great shamans (with
huge fetches, Spirit Block & Screen, etc.) might get 8 - point spells.

---------------------

From: MILLERL@WILMA.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: RQ: All or nothing Healing --- try 2
Message-ID: <9303122128.AA03584@noc2.dccs.upenn.edu>
Date: 12 Mar 93 20:26:00 GMT

This is my second attempt to send this bit of email to the RQ daily.

Whenever GMing RQ I always find it annoying how easily players can use
healing spells to get rid of all their damage. Even if they don't get
"all better" in a single round it still doesn't take them too long to
get "all better." They just wait until they have a little time then
cast another healing spell. If the GM enforces only most powerful
healing spell on a single wound that's a little better, but it still
makes them able to run around with no real damage all too easily. I
have an alternate set of healing spells as a possible solution. Note
that this is not in concept for Glorantha, but it is very much in
concept for Alternate Earth based campaigns, or any campaign that has
Conan fans in it. :)

Remember the scene in Conan where the old shaman-fella stakes a nearly
dead Conan out and summons healing spirits to heal him? Well get a
load of these rules, which could be just as easily done with Sorcery
also...

EFFECTS OF DAMAGE (borrowed from RQ4 playtest rules) When you get to
zero or negative hit points your character goes unconscious and bleeds
at one HP per round. When at negative full hit points your character
is dead. If someone can perform first aid the bleeding will stop
within 1d3 HP of time. After a while (how long is up to the GM) the
character may awaken, but is incapable of serious exertion. Count the
character as permanently Incapacitated under the new fatigue rules
until HP go to positive.

DEATH'S DOOR
Variable
Duration: until next midnight

With this spirit spell the spellcaster can revive a dying character to a
semblance of full health. How good the semblance depends on how many
points are cast. One point is good enough to stop someone from bleeding
to death. Each point adds one point to the apparent HP of the target. 
If Samhic has been damaged to -5HP and a comrade casts DEATH'S DOOR 6 on
him then Samhic will be brought to consciousness and may function as if
his HP were 1. If the same comrade cast DEATH'S DOOR 9 on him then
Samhic could function as if he had 9 more HP than previously, that is 4
HP. When the spell stops working the spell caster may want to renew with
another spell, to keep the target alive for another day, but if this
fails for some reason the person protected by DEATH'S DOOR will drop to
his or her real HP total and continue bleeding as he was before the
spell was cast.


HEALING
Variable
Duration: Instant

With this spirit spell the spellcaster can completely heal a wounded
character. The spellcaster must cast a HEALING spell with as much
intensity as the character has taken of damage in order for it to have
any effect. Fewer points of spell will have no effect whatsoever. For
instance, if Samhic, of our example above, has a full HP of 14 and is
currently down to -5 HP then Domus the healer must cast a HEALING 19 to
bring him to full health. No lesser healing will work. Since Domus only
has 10 points of HEALING, he can't help. Samhic will have to wait until
they can reach a temple with a healing specialist in it and hope that he
can get help there.


I would expect that there would be sorcerous analogues to these spells,
which would act the same way. This still allows minor healing spells to
be used to fix booboos, and let mommies kiss it better, but makes it
much tougher to heal people who have taken major wounds or a lot of
damage. The Death's Door (named after a similar spell in the Other Game)
spell let's characters survive until their natural healing processes can
bring them to positive hit points, as long as they have sorcerous help
or a competent physician to take over their care.

So what do you think?

-- 
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
S sign lists littles what wetland received in phire bonuse    --1M Monkeys