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Date: Thu, 20 May 93 17:15:52 +0200
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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 20 May 1993, part 3
Precedence: junk
Status: OR
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---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Lunar Cults & Founders
Message-ID: <930519184343_100270.337_BHB53-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 19 May 93 18:43:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 826
Jeff Okamoto writes:
> Given the way the Lunar "cults" are set up, I really wonder if
> the Seven Mothers would have modeled their spirits of retribution
> after the "adopted" cult or not.
> ...
> It would be interesting to know what choices the Seven Mothers
> had to make when they were deified -- did Duke Tarnils choose
> his cult to emulate Humakt or did he have to do so?
Seems an odd approach to solving the "Lunar problem". We know that, prior
to their becoming gods, the Seven Mothers were just ordinary mortal
cultists. We know a fair amount about two of their cults, a little about
two more, and almost nothing about the other three.
We know that Yanafal Tarnils was a Humakti. His cult has been briefly
described as "Lunar Humakt", and every version I've seen (including a
Chaosium draft) is based heavily on the familiar Humakt cult.
We know that Irrippi Ontor was a Lankhor Mhy cultist. His cult is the
Lunars' equivalent to Lhankor Mhy, and even shares Temple space with them
at times. Again, we have a fairly exact correspondence.
Queen Deezola was a "priestess of Arachne Solara" (whatever *that* means);
her cult has Healing and Earth magics (plus poetry, of course).
Jakaleel the Witch was "a priestess of Zorak Zoran from the Mountains of
Jord"; her cult has terrifying Darkness magics.
The other three (Teelo Norri, Danfive Xaron, and "She Who Waits") are
peculiarly Lunar, and have remarkably inadequate, impotent, or inaccessible
cults. I'm not going to use them in my theory until we know more. If you
want an eristic argument, refute me with them...
But it is noteworthy that, whenever we know the cultic origin of one of the
Seven Mothers, the cult of that Mother is a fairly solid Lunar version of
the original cult. I'd guess the Seven Mothers had already "made their
choices" (in Jeff's phrase) *before* participating in the ritual that
created the Red Goddess. They stole, used and abused the powers of their
original cults. (Insert here any bits of the debate on spirits of
retribution that tickle your fancy).
In short, Yanafal's cult teaches Humakti secrets because those are the
secrets that Yanafal knew. It would have been surprising if a deified
Carmanian Humakti nobleman had instead taught people how to make the corn
grow high, or walk on water, or conduct orchestral manoeuvres in the dark
(etc...).
Och, this looks like the right place for a *really nasty* theory that was
doing the rounds here a year or two ago:
The Seven Mothers are often compared to the Lightbringers: they undertake a
quest to rescue a dead deity languishing in Hell, who when returned to the
world becomes a heavenly body that visibly passes between Life and Death on
a regular cycle. Famously, each of the Lightbringers failed to use their
most important powers or virtues at some point on the Quest (cf. KoS p.86:
"each of them had a moment of failure, when their best and proudest skills
were seen to be naught"). What if the Seven Mothers went into the ritual
that brought back the Red Goddess intending *cynically* to fail in the
exercise of their cultic virtues? They deliberately betrayed their ideals
in order to pass through the various challenges of the test. That would
reinforce my suggestion that the spirits of retribution of their "original"
cults have the knives out for them... (Not yet sure this is how it worked,
but how's it grab you as a suggestion?)
Pretty boring RQ Daily yesterday. David Cheng's suggestions look good: if
you're going to keep Strike Ranks at all, that's the way to treat them.
Though I'd prefer to see more magic cast in combat rather than less (as
David wants): I think it's more reflexive / intuitive than you give credit
for (except Sorcery, of course). Recommendation: a great book for all
kinds of spirit magic in everyday use: "On Stranger Tides" by Tim Powers.
Paul Reilly's contributions were as thoughtful as ever. Yeah, any *single*
set of Elemental Oppositions will quickly run into trouble. The Pentagram
had two sets, because the lines of Evolution showed you more tensions; as I
said, though, I am not sold on it as a theory or a model of Gloranthan
magical realities.
Loved the Red Tapeworm!!
====
Nick
====
Dictum est antiqua sandalio mulier habitavit,
Quae multos pueros habuit tum ut potuit nullum
Quod faciundum erat cognoscere. Sic Domina Anser.
---------------------
From: JOVANOVIC@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU
Subject: Some responses
Message-ID: <930519232025.733e@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Date: 19 May 93 19:20:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 827
Some responses:
David -
Spell casting: Yikes! I take it you really don't like people casting
spells in combat, then? RQIV deals with this by making spell casting
an action, forcing one to have to give up either their chance to attack
or defend to cast a spell (not to mention succeed in a POWx5 roll,
and a MP vs.MP roll if an offensive spell). You can't just get off a
spell for free by timing it right, as in RQIII.
With the current RQIV rules, let's say you try to Demoralize an
opponent in combat. Both you and your opponent have a 12 POW.
You have to give up either your attack or your parry (let's say
you choose to parry and cast your spell). Your chance of success
is then 60% x 50%, or 30%. On the average, this would give your
opponent two or three melee rounds unmolested to hack away at you
before you Demoralized him or her - if we assume you have a 60% parry,
your chance of missing at least one parry over the course of
three melee rounds is pretty good (about 78%, I think), which
could put you at a serious disadvantage. You might be better off
trying to use your weapon instead.
Using your suggestion in RQIII would mean that a character casting a
Demoralize spell in the situation above (assuming INT 15) would
have a 45% x 60% x 50% = 13.5% chance to succeed in a given round.
Frankly, given those odds, I would never have a character
cast a spell in combat (particularly taking into account
the fact that the character would be defenseless, my
opponent would hit me before my spell went off, and that
he would attack with a +10% advantage). Personally, that
strikes me as being a bit too harsh.
If you don't like the fact that people calculate out SR
in RQIII to get a spell off before an opponents blow would land,
how about the following idea (perhaps less harsh), which
would eliminate that bit of wargaming: Instead of
spell casting taking 3 SR to prep the spell, how about
1d6 SR? Thus, your total SR to cast a spell would be
DEX SR + MP + 1d6. In the situation you describe, the
following could ensue:
"Well, he swung on me in SR 7 last round, so this round I declare
that I'm casting Bladesharp 2. DEX SR of 1, plus 2 SR for a 2 MP
spell is 3 SR, plus a 1d6 roll of 5, is 8 SR - darn."
Carl -
Movement in thirds: I think Robert is correct in that cutting movement
by thirds would work better, not to mention give you a bit more variety.
Another option might be 2/3, 1/2, 1/3, if a 2/3, 1/3 jump felt too steep.
Nick -
Strike ranks: Actually, I think if strike ranks are simply used to figure
out who goes when in the course of an (abstract) melee round, they
function fairly well. I think RQIII made a serious error in trying to use
strike ranks as a measure of time and movement as well, something for
which they aren't well suited (as their name might suggest). The use of
strike ranks in RQ1 and RQ2 struck me as superior to their use in RQIII.
Some things could be done to improve them - a smoothing system where
melee strike rank is based on SIZ plus DEX might help somewhat with
breakpoints.
How would you otherwise determine initiative? Basing it on DEX alone
is a bit unrealistic - sparring (with or without a weapon) with
someone with a longer reach has done a good job of convincing me
that SIZ and weapon length play a very important role in melee.
If you're going to make a calculation based on DEX, SIZ and weapon
length, you basically have a SR system.
Power gain rolls: I'm not at all fond of them either. What would you
think of a modification of the Pendragon system - handing out a
certain amount of POW gain on a periodic basis based on the characters
level of magical activity? Something along the lines of a moderately
magically active character (a priest, spell casting warrior, etc.)
gaining 1 point of POW a year, etc. up to an incredibly magically
active character (one of the Telmori Ituvanu shaman of Dorastor, who
constantly cast spells, fight spirits, and make enchanted items)
gaining 1 point of POW a season? That would give you a range of
between 0 to 5 points of POW gained a year, based on the character's
level of magical activity.
Yanafal Tarnils: I wasn't exactly arguing how powerful one or the other
was, just that I doubt Humakt's spirit of retribution would strike at
a Yanafal Tarnils cultist any more than it would strike at a Trickster,
Orlanthi, or Sedalpist sorcerer.
I'm also not really trying to claim that one point of view or the other is
the 'true' one, rather than that a situation where the cults shared
similar spirits of retribution could lead to some interesting
arguments between worshippers of the gods as to their relationship
and relative power.
For example, a Lunar priest might argue along the following lines:
Admittedly, Humakt is the premier god of death, with a far older tradition
than Yanafal Tarnils. After all, Humakt probably didn't leave the West
until shortly before the dawning, correct? That would give him at least
12 centuries up on Yanafal Tarnils. You might also think that Humakt has
more worshippers worldwide, so he would be more a more powerful god than
Yanafal Tarnils. Of course, that only demonstrates your ignorance of the
true state of affairs, of which the Invisible Third Head of the Empire
is but a part.
Why, if Humakt is more powerful, did the Household of Death suffer such a
humiliating defeat at the hands of the Lunar army?
And why, if Humakt is the premier god of death, could he not keep Yanafal,
a former worshipper of his, dead?
The Humakti, in turn, might argue that Yanafal Tarnils is but a pale
reflection of Humakt, and that Yanfal had to turn his back on the powers of
death before he could return to life. Thus the death magic of the Humakti
will always be stronger than that of the Yanafal Tarnils. Since Yanfal
did not abandon Truth as well, he remains bound to the honorable behavior
enforced by Humakt.
The Lunar priest might then argue that Yanafal chose his own path, and
as he was an honorable man, simply chooses to enforce honorable behavior
on the part of his cultists. Humakt has nothing to do with it.
etc., etc.
I think this would actually make for some pretty interesting
theological discussion - though, given the nature of Humakti
and Yanafal Tarnils cultists, it would probably spill into
a battle circle pretty quickly (Hm, I wonder if a Yanafal
Tarnils cultist would insist on drawing a line down the
middle of the battle circle ).
Jeff -
Right, that's kind of what I was trying to get at. Also, if you
assume some sort of connection to an ideal (a reflection of the
Celestial Court, perhaps), the Seven Mothers may not have had
as much choice as they liked as to what they modeled their cults
or cult spirits of retribution after.
As they drew upon heroquests to gain the power they needed to defeat
their foes (in this case the Orlanth pantheon linked Carmanian empire
and the Solar pantheon linked Dara Happans), they may have been forced
to become more and more like them.
If you look at the example of Arkat and Nysalor, I think you'll see some
interesting parallels. Arkat eventually became the monster that he saw
his foe to be in order to gain the power to defeat him.
That might explain both the heavy Orlanthi and Solar parallels that
run through the Lunar pantheon. There are differences, of course -
the Red Goddess appeared to do a better job of dealing with the Other
at the beginning of her reign than did Yelm, but perhaps at the end of
her reign, it may cause her more trouble (a mirror image of Yelm's
struggle, perhaps).
Oliver