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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 26 May 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk
Status: O

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
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---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 25 May 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <9305251902.AA04654@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 25 May 93 19:02:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 876

  Paul Reilly here.

  Lots of stuff and little time to reply in.  Quickly:

  Lead medallions are good.  We used something like these in our campaign, but
they weren't enchanted, just said (in Darktongue)  "Property of (sponsoring
Troll), do not Eat" or words to that effect.  Lumped them in with Trollkin.
Some trolls would give humans ear notches as safe conduct.

  Annelinde, a human turned trollish, used earrings instead of ear notches
to identify her trollkin (and some of her other servants.)  Earrings, she says,
are more humane and more easily understood by humans.  She gave her Etyries
trainees silver earrings, warriors lead, etc.  She also used
medallions as above for her human friends, but didn't tell them that
they were now labelled "This is Annelinde's - do not eat," simply that
it might protect them from trolls.  She had to go through some heavy trials
at Dagori Inkarth to prove her status.

__________________________
  Bill Robertson like my Deezola magic.  Thanks.  I will try to get
a full write-up done at some point.  She also has Inspiration magic 
and should retain some basic Earth magic.  Inspiration will enable
nobles to have an effect like Morale on their liege men.  (Does 
anyone else think they overcompensated by weakening Morale _and_
making it one-use?)  There will also be Inspiration for poets.

  The healing magic is meant to be both powerful (can heal several
people with one spell) and risky (you can get exposed yourself.)  It
is supposed to reflect the good noble willing to put their life
on the line for their people.

  Does anyone with Cults of Prax know which magic she gives to the Seven
Mothers?  Where do the Seven Mothers get Resurrection?
_______________________

  Burton likes Runic Sorcery and comments:
>  Now all you need is some system where sorcerers can research how to create
>  new rune sequences, and I think this has just the right feel for the west.
>  Keep beating on it...I wanna see the improved versions. :)

  I am in fact beating on it and have a substantial list of spells.  I will
try to write up how Runes act in the various positions and a sort of 
algorithm for generating new spells.  Then we have to decide a spell 
research process.  I assume that the "known" spells are the result of 
very successful research.  Thus a crit on your Magic Theory will give
a spell equal to one of the listed spells, a special will give one
essentially equal but with minor side effects or special requirements,
a normal success gives you a kludge that works in this case but has 
drawbacks that keep it from being generally useful, a failure means 
weeks of frustration with no results to show for it (typical research)
and a fumble gives something where you don't recognize the crucial flaws
in it until you field test it.  (Like the Tacoma Narrows bridge.)

  We playtested such a system (with just one sorceror) and it work pretty
well.  Oh, and you get a penalty on your skill for working out of your
specialty.
_________________

 Orlanthis hate Lunars more or less the same way the jews hated the 
Seleucids: i.e. many different opinions ranging from "Kill Them" to
"Join Them".
_________
P A Snow has many good points about POW gains.  I was discussing this
subject with a friend this weekend and he suggested a gain every time 
you master a new skill.  (Or at least a check.)  This fits in well
with Snow's point (c):
> has become more confident in his/her abilities

  It's also a good mechanism covered already by the game system.  Mastery
is hard to get.  It models real-world increased self confidence well.

  Another excellent point:
>The vital thing is to get the feel and meaning of POW gain set and then look
>for the mechanism. I hope this helps.

  I think this is true of all the systems in the game.  Look at Pendragon,
they did a magnificent job.
_______________
  Cult of Vianeth:  Good show David Ingram!  Planter sacrifice cults need
to get represented.  Maybe they have this in Pamaltela.

  All for now,
 Paul

---------------------

From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Various and sundry
Message-ID: <9305251913.AA22662@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 25 May 93 09:13:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 877



On the mobile, possible carnivorous plants.

They sound like chaos things to me.  Plants are NOT supposed to act like that
unless they have some sort of runic association which allows them to.  Even
the sentient trees of the Gardeners still act like trees are supposed to.

I think these plants are either chaotic or chaos-tainted (in the latter case,
they may be given the same sort of acceptance in Aldryami society as the Romal
have in Uz society).

(That would be a giggle, the Storm Bull doubles over in agony and proceeds to
start hacking away at a stand of weeds while screaming "CHAOS!!!".  His friends
whack him over the head and put him away someplace nice and quiet.)




On the cult of plants from blood.

This guy sounds like one of those Gloranthan gods who was corrupted by chaos.
"Proper" plants do not need blood to live, any more than do "proper" humans need
to drink human blood to live.  He strikes me almost like a plant-rune associated
Vivamort sort.



On the list of stuff:

The prices are adjusted, so far as I know, to fit the RuneQuest IV draft.
I did not include armor or weapons in my list, anyway.  There are probably still
a few errors here and there.

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Catching up after a weekend away...
Message-ID: <930525225044_100270.337_BHB47-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 25 May 93 22:50:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 878

_____________
Brian Hebert:

Trollpak is THE basic source for Shadows Dance.  I don't know if anyone out 
there has seen anything that was done towards the proposed boardgame of the 
same name.  Perhaps they could let us know.  Certainly, the peculiar 
business with the Torch, the Throne (where the Faceless Stone Statue came 
from), the Shadows, etc. deserves more space than it's been given so far.

__________________
Richard C. Staats:

> I always thought of the Invisible God as kind of a Great
> Compromise creation, and in my campaigns, I treat sorcery
> as a type of magic that only came into Glorantha as a
> result of the Great Compromise.  This flows along nicely
> with some of the more recent articles on the use of Runic magic.

I am in partial agreement with you here.  Certainly, modern sorcery (as its 
more scientifically-minded practitioners describe it) couldn't have worked 
before Time, when the Elements etc. were still free-willed and there was no 
defined Natural Law within which the sorcerer could work.  That said, 
Malkion came as Prophet of the Invisible God during the pre-Time Ice Age.

Perhaps the nature of his Supreme Being changed over time?  Note that the 
One God has two aspects defined in the Prosopaedia, those of Creator and 
Invisible God.  Malkion may have worshipped a different version of the One 
God from that which Hrestol contacted/discovered -- who, please remember, 
was only "needed" inside Time when the Old Malkioni Way could no longer 
satisfy worshippers (cf. CoT; Glorantha Book).

If we assume that Lankhor Mhy being given the Law Rune in GoG was not just 
a misprint for his familiar Stasis Rune, the easiest way to assign meaning 
to it is to assume that Law represents the Great Compromise, of which 
Lankhor Mhy is the Guardian (he holds the Stone Scrolls on which it is 
recorded: Prosopaedia).  If the Compromise = Law, and Law = Invisible God, 
then...

Juggling ideas in public.  I will say that this seems to be a very 
worthwhile avenue for exploration.  I consider it vital to our 
understanding of "Sorcery" that we bear foremost in our mind the pious 
Wizards who are the predominant users of this form of magic.  We must 
always reconcile the powers available to the Malkioni to their conception 
of a Supreme Deity.

Oh, yeah: Cacodemon was in Elder Secrets.  One of the less good reasons for 
buying that *fine* supplement.

_____
Paul:

Nice idea on the Lunars' Bene Gesserit Breeding Programme.  Not sure this 
is exactly what they were doing, but it helps muddy the waters...

Bill said (re: Deezola laying on hands):
> I always imagined an empathic Healing approach far far
> away from civilization.

Me too. I'm not sure this works for Queen Deezola.  Your suggested Rune 
spell looks very shamanic, and would be extremely powerful against an 
early-stage mundane disease.  Certainly, we need to work out what Greg 
means by calling her "a priestess of Arachne Solara".  And where does she 
get that title from?

Your Runic Sorcery.  Briefly, I'd have thought it easier to use Element = 
Noun, Power = Verb (as in Ars Magica).  The system you are working towards 
looks like being very open-ended, and this would formalise it a little 
more.  But I did like the flavour and potency of the new spells 
(Intensity-less and Range-less prayers for peasants).  Like to see more of 
this stuff, if you do any...

I plan to use STR = Storm, CON = Darkness, SIZ = Earth, INT = Fire and DEX 
= Water; POW is the Life Power (cf. Glorantha Book), while APP is the Man 
Form.  There is no Lunar characteristic (INT seems inept given the Blue 
Moon has no intellect while the Red is the source of insanity).

STR = Chest, CON = Abdomen, SIZ = Legs, INT = Head, and DEX = Arms (if you 
want to knock off characteristic points for major wounds).  Same Runic 
associations apply as given above.

I'll give people a chance to attack this before I waste time defending it.  
There are arguments for each of the above associations, and you at least 
will probably see most of them straight away...

__________________
prharmaty@aol.com:
(that's an odd name!)

Yeah, deluded Lunars.  It sometimes helps to consider of the Lunar Empire's 
use of Chaos as a parallel to modern governments' use of nuclear power and 
nuclear weapons.  Makes a lot of the citizens of the Empire very leery, and 
you do see "Chaos Powers: No Thanks!" bumper-stickers on chariots.  Plus, 
perhaps this tells us how the White Moonies modify the Moon Rune...

__________
P.A. Snow:

YES!  I don't know if it can be done, but your "ideal response" is 
certainly how rules ought to be crafted or revised.

_____
Jeff:

> I find it hard to believe that Queen Deezola could have
> gone on a quest to find Yelm.

Easier to believe it of Eurmal?  I *think* you're thinking of Jakaleel the 
Witch here, but the point still stands.  However, I don't think they went 
looking for Yelm.  I think this was creative HeroQuesting: the Seven 
Mothers found the half-living / half-dead Red Goddess in the Underworld, 
and knew (from their Carmanian members) that the Lightbringers' Quest was 
an appropriate way to bring her back to the world.  But unlike that hick 
Harmast, these guys are literate.  They *know* they are going to have to 
fail grievously at some point.  But they still go ahead and try.  What does 
that say for their dedication?  Depends whose side you're on...

_______
Oliver:

"Cynicism or Illumination?"  -- is there a difference?

_______
Graeme:

> When I first read the write-up of Loskalm, I thought "This
> lot are going to do a lot of damage" and I still do. I think
> they are a frightening bunch of fanatics.

Wonderful!  Here's me thinking you were one of them all along!  You have 
put into words better than I could the immediate impact of the Loskalmi 
write-up.  I am still not sure that Hrestoli Idealism *does* work, or - if 
it ever did - that it can continue to do so removed from the isolation of 
the Ban.  But (as the Lunars say), only Time will tell.

> Actually, I find much of what is written about Western
> culture is contradictory.

Join the club!

> Jar-Eel "Let's kill the Pharoah in His Bath" the Murderess

Not only are you being rude about my Patron Saint, but they weren't in his 
bath at the time.  They were out in the fertile fields of Esrolia.  Where 
else would the Pharoah reenact his replacement for the Year Sons' ritual, 
his annual self-sacrifice to channeling the Earthpower through himself, as 
Dying and Rising God of the Holy Country?  (How Jar-eel got to take part is 
another story... as is what she did to him).

_____________
A Last Point:

The proposed new "Combat Sense"for warriors is about as welcome an addition 
to RuneQuest as RQ4's "Maneuver" skill.  Unnecessary character-sheet 
cluttering!  Out on them both!

====
Nick
====

"We Are All Ants"

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Grain Goddesses, Yelmalians, Paul's sorcery
Message-ID: 
Date: 26 May 93 08:52:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 879

Hi,

one of my questions about Yelmalians was answered: why they grow barley. 
Last weekend I visited STARD, a major convention in Hamburg, Germany, and 
got hold of Heroes 1.6 and 2.1. (anybody interested to buy some? the shop 
still has about a dozen each (plus Heroes 1.3) in stock, price about 11 DM - 
contact me for address)

I don't know in which but there was the history of the fifth wane of the 
Lunar Empire, or Hon-Eel's wane. In this is told that the nomads grazed 
their herds in the rich barley fields. A little later the provinces throw 
off the pentian yoke and come back under the emperor's command.

Hon-Eel then undertake a heroquest and woos some elf god, geets pregnant and 
the gift of a new seed - maize.

OK. this is how maize is introduced into Peloria. How was it adopted by 
Pelora? Was Pelora before a Barley-Goddess, too?

Questions, questions... What does your God Learner slave say, Nick?

_______________________________________________
Paul Reilly's Sorcery concept and MOB's answer:

The runic concordances seem at some points odd or wrong to me.

Metals: Air Rune metal is bronze, the mixture of its parents' metals copper 
(Earth) and tn (Sky).

Similarly I would replace sight to Sky, leaving fire to warm/cold perception 
- a human sense after all.
I liked APP as stat for fire - that's what foppish Yelm stands for, isn't it?  
always viewed fire as a derivate Element, a specialisation of Light/Sky.
(I never could understand what real men like the Pentians see in degenerate 
Yelm when there are warriors like Pole Star in the Sky Pantheon.)

I heavily doubt that moon stands for balance - the Red Goddess UNbalanced 
Glorantha, if anything. Intuition doesn't fit it quite, either - I'd propose 
delusion, as the only thing the red moon has as gift is madness.

Excuse my anti-lunar bias, but associating INT with the Moon Rune is an 
outrage (Orlanthi, hear my call!). Why assign a stat to a broken Element, 
some people believe it to be a form Rune rather than an element. My 
suggeston would be to assign INT to Sky/Light. Remember Lhankor Mhy's Quest 
for the Light of Knowledge! And Dayzatar, premier light god, is the holder 
of the Truth Rune...

Less controversally I'd swap SIZ to darkness (trolls are huge) and STR to 
Earth - this fits better with e.g. the myth of Storm Bull drawing Strength 
form Eiritha to defeat Wakboth.

Last note on this: All who try themselves on runic sorcery: don't let 
yourselves be limited by the score of the known Runes. These are the Runes 
known by the theistic Culture in Central Genertela, the western Sorcerers 
may know some which are of little relevance there, but impersonating 
sorcery-specific effects like duration, range etc.

-- looking forward to read from you,
Joerg
-- 
--  --  --  Mit freundlichen Gruessen...

Joerg Baumgartner


---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Thoughts about POW/POW-gain
Message-ID: 
Date: 26 May 93 08:53:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 880

Paul Reilly asked us to give our proposals for POW gain  
mechanics. Here are mine, beginning with an analysis of what POW  
really means.

Let's take a look at the roots, i.e. rules.
In the Players Book (all references De Luxe Box, RQ3) we are  
told on page 12:
> Power (POW): This characteristic measures an adventurer's Life  
Force. Power represents the integration of an adventurer with  
his universe. High POW shows great harmony with Life, low POW  
shows proportionally less. <

Harmony it is with Life. Mind the capitals. Mo mention of struggle. 
Logically being in harmony with life is using your POW, maybe earning a 
gain roll. More about this later.

> [Stuff about hiding deleted]
Related to the concept of charisma or animal magnetism, POW also indicates 
a character's ability to lead. <

Leadership: So, whenever a character acts as a leader, (s)he exercises 
his/her POW.

The other places in the Players Book where POW is metioned deal with luck 
rolls (a concept I haven't used once in four years of mastering RQ) and 
the debated POW gain rolls.

We find more about POW in the Magic Book: On page 5 it says:

> Though the beliefs of the user shape the approach of the user to magic, 
all magic works by certan principles which stem from the life force of the 
user. [...] The ability to create life force is measured in RuneQuest by 
POW; use of life force is measured through the expenditure of magic 
points. <

Use of life force -> use of POW -> use of magic: Doing any kind of magic 
is exercising one's POW to create new life force, be it casting a spell or 
sacrificing MP to one's deity, or combating spirits. People who expend MP 
use their POW and ought to be given a chance to increase it by training, 
similar to skill increases in riding on long journeys. The more magc a 
character uses, the more likely should he gain a POW increase.

Careful here, we don't want everybody running along with species-maximum 
POW. Let's take a look at the description of POW gain rolls (Players' 
Book, p. 39):

> [...] There is no chance to increase if the resistance table indicated a 
95% or better success chance, but for any chance less than 95% there is a 
possibility. <

How do we translate this into use of non-offensive magic?

(BTW, this leaves me with a reminder from a friend who favors GURPS 
resistance procedure over RuneQuest's because of its non-linearity. Any 
ideas/opinons here?)

What kind of resisting force does the harmless spellcaster face? And how 
strong is this force?

Easy for spirit magic: The caster has his POW*5% chance to successfully 
cast a spell (Do you include magic skill bonus here fully, or only to 
compensate ENC, or not at all?).

The chance to misfire must be related to the resisting force. It's harmony 
with one's environment again, you need to tap into the environment's auras 
to power your magic. Where there is nothing to tap into (as in the dead 
place in Prax), magic does not work, or only out of oneself, eating up the 
casters life force (compare this to a sorcerer tapping his own POW in 
order to cast a spell). The better you are tuned to your surroundings, the 
better the magic works.
On a related note, being tuned to a life magic crystal tunes one's magic 
to a specific field of magic, giving extraordinary results. (Elder 
Secrets)



Let's not forget that after expending MPs, one becomes more vulnerable to 
magic or spirits' attacks. The lower you push your MP level, the more 
danger you face. Spending all your available life force (MPs) makes you 
wide open to any kind of magical attack. As a side effect, you get 
physically incapacitated.

I'm not advocating that characters making a habit out of spending MPs as 
soon as they come should have a near automatic increase of POW, but those 
who never do so certainly do not deserve a POW gain - they don't run any 
risk.


Someone who has experienced the nearly ecstatical feeling after mastering 
a personal danger (I know that it's the aftereffects os adrenaline) knows 
the feeling of power flooding through him. If you have risked your life 
and felt the thrill of being alife afterwards, you might qualify for a POW 
gain roll. Characters who survive a major wound, a chancy leap or a combat 
against a powerful foe gain a new understanding of life force in my 
opinion. (If they permanently sacrifice this link to life, they let the 
experience fade out into meaninglessness, gaining some other advantage.)

Danger through sheer folly or through tactical mishap which has been 
mastered could lead to POW increases. Do not regard this as hidden 
experience point system (I hate those points), but admittedly it has to do 
with experience. The GM has to judge wether the situation was critical, 
and the player has to contribute if it felt critical for his character. 
(Sounds idealistic, doesn't it?) So if the odds were worse than _?_ % to 
get out of a tight situation without losses, but the characters managed, 
thy ought to be awarded some chance to gain POW. In the average, say three 
to five serious combat actions, critical situations fast-talked out of or 
all-or-nothing actions could give a POW gain roll. Modify this roll if 
there has been lots of action (in favor of the characters) or if there was 
no real menace (against the characters).

Oh, and if a character managed to overcome some resistance against 
offensive spells, or lead a congregation in worhip, take that into 
account...

My 0.02$
  
-- 
--  --  --  Mit freundlichen Gruessen...

Joerg Baumgartner