(Message rqd:86) Return-Path:Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (sunnl) by homeland.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08324; Wed, 26 May 93 17:16:19 +0200 Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA17293; Wed, 26 May 93 17:16:05 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21769; Wed, 26 May 93 17:15:17 +0200 Date: Wed, 26 May 93 17:15:17 +0200 Message-Id: <9305261515.AA21769@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 26 May 1993, part 1 Precedence: junk Status: O The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld) --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 25 May 1993, part 1 Message-ID: <9305251902.AA04654@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 25 May 93 19:02:25 GMT X-RQ-ID: 876 Paul Reilly here. Lots of stuff and little time to reply in. Quickly: Lead medallions are good. We used something like these in our campaign, but they weren't enchanted, just said (in Darktongue) "Property of (sponsoring Troll), do not Eat" or words to that effect. Lumped them in with Trollkin. Some trolls would give humans ear notches as safe conduct. Annelinde, a human turned trollish, used earrings instead of ear notches to identify her trollkin (and some of her other servants.) Earrings, she says, are more humane and more easily understood by humans. She gave her Etyries trainees silver earrings, warriors lead, etc. She also used medallions as above for her human friends, but didn't tell them that they were now labelled "This is Annelinde's - do not eat," simply that it might protect them from trolls. She had to go through some heavy trials at Dagori Inkarth to prove her status. __________________________ Bill Robertson like my Deezola magic. Thanks. I will try to get a full write-up done at some point. She also has Inspiration magic and should retain some basic Earth magic. Inspiration will enable nobles to have an effect like Morale on their liege men. (Does anyone else think they overcompensated by weakening Morale _and_ making it one-use?) There will also be Inspiration for poets. The healing magic is meant to be both powerful (can heal several people with one spell) and risky (you can get exposed yourself.) It is supposed to reflect the good noble willing to put their life on the line for their people. Does anyone with Cults of Prax know which magic she gives to the Seven Mothers? Where do the Seven Mothers get Resurrection? _______________________ Burton likes Runic Sorcery and comments: > Now all you need is some system where sorcerers can research how to create > new rune sequences, and I think this has just the right feel for the west. > Keep beating on it...I wanna see the improved versions. :) I am in fact beating on it and have a substantial list of spells. I will try to write up how Runes act in the various positions and a sort of algorithm for generating new spells. Then we have to decide a spell research process. I assume that the "known" spells are the result of very successful research. Thus a crit on your Magic Theory will give a spell equal to one of the listed spells, a special will give one essentially equal but with minor side effects or special requirements, a normal success gives you a kludge that works in this case but has drawbacks that keep it from being generally useful, a failure means weeks of frustration with no results to show for it (typical research) and a fumble gives something where you don't recognize the crucial flaws in it until you field test it. (Like the Tacoma Narrows bridge.) We playtested such a system (with just one sorceror) and it work pretty well. Oh, and you get a penalty on your skill for working out of your specialty. _________________ Orlanthis hate Lunars more or less the same way the jews hated the Seleucids: i.e. many different opinions ranging from "Kill Them" to "Join Them". _________ P A Snow has many good points about POW gains. I was discussing this subject with a friend this weekend and he suggested a gain every time you master a new skill. (Or at least a check.) This fits in well with Snow's point (c): > has become more confident in his/her abilities It's also a good mechanism covered already by the game system. Mastery is hard to get. It models real-world increased self confidence well. Another excellent point: >The vital thing is to get the feel and meaning of POW gain set and then look >for the mechanism. I hope this helps. I think this is true of all the systems in the game. Look at Pendragon, they did a magnificent job. _______________ Cult of Vianeth: Good show David Ingram! Planter sacrifice cults need to get represented. Maybe they have this in Pamaltela. All for now, Paul --------------------- From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Subject: Various and sundry Message-ID: <9305251913.AA22662@sonata.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 25 May 93 09:13:45 GMT X-RQ-ID: 877 On the mobile, possible carnivorous plants. They sound like chaos things to me. Plants are NOT supposed to act like that unless they have some sort of runic association which allows them to. Even the sentient trees of the Gardeners still act like trees are supposed to. I think these plants are either chaotic or chaos-tainted (in the latter case, they may be given the same sort of acceptance in Aldryami society as the Romal have in Uz society). (That would be a giggle, the Storm Bull doubles over in agony and proceeds to start hacking away at a stand of weeds while screaming "CHAOS!!!". His friends whack him over the head and put him away someplace nice and quiet.) On the cult of plants from blood. This guy sounds like one of those Gloranthan gods who was corrupted by chaos. "Proper" plants do not need blood to live, any more than do "proper" humans need to drink human blood to live. He strikes me almost like a plant-rune associated Vivamort sort. On the list of stuff: The prices are adjusted, so far as I know, to fit the RuneQuest IV draft. I did not include armor or weapons in my list, anyway. There are probably still a few errors here and there. --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Catching up after a weekend away... Message-ID: <930525225044_100270.337_BHB47-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 25 May 93 22:50:44 GMT X-RQ-ID: 878 _____________ Brian Hebert: Trollpak is THE basic source for Shadows Dance. I don't know if anyone out there has seen anything that was done towards the proposed boardgame of the same name. Perhaps they could let us know. Certainly, the peculiar business with the Torch, the Throne (where the Faceless Stone Statue came from), the Shadows, etc. deserves more space than it's been given so far. __________________ Richard C. Staats: > I always thought of the Invisible God as kind of a Great > Compromise creation, and in my campaigns, I treat sorcery > as a type of magic that only came into Glorantha as a > result of the Great Compromise. This flows along nicely > with some of the more recent articles on the use of Runic magic. I am in partial agreement with you here. Certainly, modern sorcery (as its more scientifically-minded practitioners describe it) couldn't have worked before Time, when the Elements etc. were still free-willed and there was no defined Natural Law within which the sorcerer could work. That said, Malkion came as Prophet of the Invisible God during the pre-Time Ice Age. Perhaps the nature of his Supreme Being changed over time? Note that the One God has two aspects defined in the Prosopaedia, those of Creator and Invisible God. Malkion may have worshipped a different version of the One God from that which Hrestol contacted/discovered -- who, please remember, was only "needed" inside Time when the Old Malkioni Way could no longer satisfy worshippers (cf. CoT; Glorantha Book). If we assume that Lankhor Mhy being given the Law Rune in GoG was not just a misprint for his familiar Stasis Rune, the easiest way to assign meaning to it is to assume that Law represents the Great Compromise, of which Lankhor Mhy is the Guardian (he holds the Stone Scrolls on which it is recorded: Prosopaedia). If the Compromise = Law, and Law = Invisible God, then... Juggling ideas in public. I will say that this seems to be a very worthwhile avenue for exploration. I consider it vital to our understanding of "Sorcery" that we bear foremost in our mind the pious Wizards who are the predominant users of this form of magic. We must always reconcile the powers available to the Malkioni to their conception of a Supreme Deity. Oh, yeah: Cacodemon was in Elder Secrets. One of the less good reasons for buying that *fine* supplement. _____ Paul: Nice idea on the Lunars' Bene Gesserit Breeding Programme. Not sure this is exactly what they were doing, but it helps muddy the waters... Bill said (re: Deezola laying on hands): > I always imagined an empathic Healing approach far far > away from civilization. Me too. I'm not sure this works for Queen Deezola. Your suggested Rune spell looks very shamanic, and would be extremely powerful against an early-stage mundane disease. Certainly, we need to work out what Greg means by calling her "a priestess of Arachne Solara". And where does she get that title from? Your Runic Sorcery. Briefly, I'd have thought it easier to use Element = Noun, Power = Verb (as in Ars Magica). The system you are working towards looks like being very open-ended, and this would formalise it a little more. But I did like the flavour and potency of the new spells (Intensity-less and Range-less prayers for peasants). Like to see more of this stuff, if you do any... I plan to use STR = Storm, CON = Darkness, SIZ = Earth, INT = Fire and DEX = Water; POW is the Life Power (cf. Glorantha Book), while APP is the Man Form. There is no Lunar characteristic (INT seems inept given the Blue Moon has no intellect while the Red is the source of insanity). STR = Chest, CON = Abdomen, SIZ = Legs, INT = Head, and DEX = Arms (if you want to knock off characteristic points for major wounds). Same Runic associations apply as given above. I'll give people a chance to attack this before I waste time defending it. There are arguments for each of the above associations, and you at least will probably see most of them straight away... __________________ prharmaty@aol.com: (that's an odd name!) Yeah, deluded Lunars. It sometimes helps to consider of the Lunar Empire's use of Chaos as a parallel to modern governments' use of nuclear power and nuclear weapons. Makes a lot of the citizens of the Empire very leery, and you do see "Chaos Powers: No Thanks!" bumper-stickers on chariots. Plus, perhaps this tells us how the White Moonies modify the Moon Rune... __________ P.A. Snow: YES! I don't know if it can be done, but your "ideal response" is certainly how rules ought to be crafted or revised. _____ Jeff: > I find it hard to believe that Queen Deezola could have > gone on a quest to find Yelm. Easier to believe it of Eurmal? I *think* you're thinking of Jakaleel the Witch here, but the point still stands. However, I don't think they went looking for Yelm. I think this was creative HeroQuesting: the Seven Mothers found the half-living / half-dead Red Goddess in the Underworld, and knew (from their Carmanian members) that the Lightbringers' Quest was an appropriate way to bring her back to the world. But unlike that hick Harmast, these guys are literate. They *know* they are going to have to fail grievously at some point. But they still go ahead and try. What does that say for their dedication? Depends whose side you're on... _______ Oliver: "Cynicism or Illumination?" -- is there a difference? _______ Graeme: > When I first read the write-up of Loskalm, I thought "This > lot are going to do a lot of damage" and I still do. I think > they are a frightening bunch of fanatics. Wonderful! Here's me thinking you were one of them all along! You have put into words better than I could the immediate impact of the Loskalmi write-up. I am still not sure that Hrestoli Idealism *does* work, or - if it ever did - that it can continue to do so removed from the isolation of the Ban. But (as the Lunars say), only Time will tell. > Actually, I find much of what is written about Western > culture is contradictory. Join the club! > Jar-Eel "Let's kill the Pharoah in His Bath" the Murderess Not only are you being rude about my Patron Saint, but they weren't in his bath at the time. They were out in the fertile fields of Esrolia. Where else would the Pharoah reenact his replacement for the Year Sons' ritual, his annual self-sacrifice to channeling the Earthpower through himself, as Dying and Rising God of the Holy Country? (How Jar-eel got to take part is another story... as is what she did to him). _____________ A Last Point: The proposed new "Combat Sense"for warriors is about as welcome an addition to RuneQuest as RQ4's "Maneuver" skill. Unnecessary character-sheet cluttering! Out on them both! ==== Nick ==== "We Are All Ants" --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Grain Goddesses, Yelmalians, Paul's sorcery Message-ID: Date: 26 May 93 08:52:27 GMT X-RQ-ID: 879 Hi, one of my questions about Yelmalians was answered: why they grow barley. Last weekend I visited STARD, a major convention in Hamburg, Germany, and got hold of Heroes 1.6 and 2.1. (anybody interested to buy some? the shop still has about a dozen each (plus Heroes 1.3) in stock, price about 11 DM - contact me for address) I don't know in which but there was the history of the fifth wane of the Lunar Empire, or Hon-Eel's wane. In this is told that the nomads grazed their herds in the rich barley fields. A little later the provinces throw off the pentian yoke and come back under the emperor's command. Hon-Eel then undertake a heroquest and woos some elf god, geets pregnant and the gift of a new seed - maize. OK. this is how maize is introduced into Peloria. How was it adopted by Pelora? Was Pelora before a Barley-Goddess, too? Questions, questions... What does your God Learner slave say, Nick? _______________________________________________ Paul Reilly's Sorcery concept and MOB's answer: The runic concordances seem at some points odd or wrong to me. Metals: Air Rune metal is bronze, the mixture of its parents' metals copper (Earth) and tn (Sky). Similarly I would replace sight to Sky, leaving fire to warm/cold perception - a human sense after all. I liked APP as stat for fire - that's what foppish Yelm stands for, isn't it? always viewed fire as a derivate Element, a specialisation of Light/Sky. (I never could understand what real men like the Pentians see in degenerate Yelm when there are warriors like Pole Star in the Sky Pantheon.) I heavily doubt that moon stands for balance - the Red Goddess UNbalanced Glorantha, if anything. Intuition doesn't fit it quite, either - I'd propose delusion, as the only thing the red moon has as gift is madness. Excuse my anti-lunar bias, but associating INT with the Moon Rune is an outrage (Orlanthi, hear my call!). Why assign a stat to a broken Element, some people believe it to be a form Rune rather than an element. My suggeston would be to assign INT to Sky/Light. Remember Lhankor Mhy's Quest for the Light of Knowledge! And Dayzatar, premier light god, is the holder of the Truth Rune... Less controversally I'd swap SIZ to darkness (trolls are huge) and STR to Earth - this fits better with e.g. the myth of Storm Bull drawing Strength form Eiritha to defeat Wakboth. Last note on this: All who try themselves on runic sorcery: don't let yourselves be limited by the score of the known Runes. These are the Runes known by the theistic Culture in Central Genertela, the western Sorcerers may know some which are of little relevance there, but impersonating sorcery-specific effects like duration, range etc. -- looking forward to read from you, Joerg -- -- -- -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen... Joerg Baumgartner --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Thoughts about POW/POW-gain Message-ID: Date: 26 May 93 08:53:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 880 Paul Reilly asked us to give our proposals for POW gain mechanics. Here are mine, beginning with an analysis of what POW really means. Let's take a look at the roots, i.e. rules. In the Players Book (all references De Luxe Box, RQ3) we are told on page 12: > Power (POW): This characteristic measures an adventurer's Life Force. Power represents the integration of an adventurer with his universe. High POW shows great harmony with Life, low POW shows proportionally less. < Harmony it is with Life. Mind the capitals. Mo mention of struggle. Logically being in harmony with life is using your POW, maybe earning a gain roll. More about this later. > [Stuff about hiding deleted] Related to the concept of charisma or animal magnetism, POW also indicates a character's ability to lead. < Leadership: So, whenever a character acts as a leader, (s)he exercises his/her POW. The other places in the Players Book where POW is metioned deal with luck rolls (a concept I haven't used once in four years of mastering RQ) and the debated POW gain rolls. We find more about POW in the Magic Book: On page 5 it says: > Though the beliefs of the user shape the approach of the user to magic, all magic works by certan principles which stem from the life force of the user. [...] The ability to create life force is measured in RuneQuest by POW; use of life force is measured through the expenditure of magic points. < Use of life force -> use of POW -> use of magic: Doing any kind of magic is exercising one's POW to create new life force, be it casting a spell or sacrificing MP to one's deity, or combating spirits. People who expend MP use their POW and ought to be given a chance to increase it by training, similar to skill increases in riding on long journeys. The more magc a character uses, the more likely should he gain a POW increase. Careful here, we don't want everybody running along with species-maximum POW. Let's take a look at the description of POW gain rolls (Players' Book, p. 39): > [...] There is no chance to increase if the resistance table indicated a 95% or better success chance, but for any chance less than 95% there is a possibility. < How do we translate this into use of non-offensive magic? (BTW, this leaves me with a reminder from a friend who favors GURPS resistance procedure over RuneQuest's because of its non-linearity. Any ideas/opinons here?) What kind of resisting force does the harmless spellcaster face? And how strong is this force? Easy for spirit magic: The caster has his POW*5% chance to successfully cast a spell (Do you include magic skill bonus here fully, or only to compensate ENC, or not at all?). The chance to misfire must be related to the resisting force. It's harmony with one's environment again, you need to tap into the environment's auras to power your magic. Where there is nothing to tap into (as in the dead place in Prax), magic does not work, or only out of oneself, eating up the casters life force (compare this to a sorcerer tapping his own POW in order to cast a spell). The better you are tuned to your surroundings, the better the magic works. On a related note, being tuned to a life magic crystal tunes one's magic to a specific field of magic, giving extraordinary results. (Elder Secrets) Let's not forget that after expending MPs, one becomes more vulnerable to magic or spirits' attacks. The lower you push your MP level, the more danger you face. Spending all your available life force (MPs) makes you wide open to any kind of magical attack. As a side effect, you get physically incapacitated. I'm not advocating that characters making a habit out of spending MPs as soon as they come should have a near automatic increase of POW, but those who never do so certainly do not deserve a POW gain - they don't run any risk. Someone who has experienced the nearly ecstatical feeling after mastering a personal danger (I know that it's the aftereffects os adrenaline) knows the feeling of power flooding through him. If you have risked your life and felt the thrill of being alife afterwards, you might qualify for a POW gain roll. Characters who survive a major wound, a chancy leap or a combat against a powerful foe gain a new understanding of life force in my opinion. (If they permanently sacrifice this link to life, they let the experience fade out into meaninglessness, gaining some other advantage.) Danger through sheer folly or through tactical mishap which has been mastered could lead to POW increases. Do not regard this as hidden experience point system (I hate those points), but admittedly it has to do with experience. The GM has to judge wether the situation was critical, and the player has to contribute if it felt critical for his character. (Sounds idealistic, doesn't it?) So if the odds were worse than _?_ % to get out of a tight situation without losses, but the characters managed, thy ought to be awarded some chance to gain POW. In the average, say three to five serious combat actions, critical situations fast-talked out of or all-or-nothing actions could give a POW gain roll. Modify this roll if there has been lots of action (in favor of the characters) or if there was no real menace (against the characters). Oh, and if a character managed to overcome some resistance against offensive spells, or lead a congregation in worhip, take that into account... My 0.02$ -- -- -- -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen... Joerg Baumgartner