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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 29 May 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk
Status: OR
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: staats@Athena.MIT.EDU
Subject: Paul's Comment about a Sorcery System
Message-ID: <9305281608.AA01315@vongole>
Date: 28 May 93 16:08:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 893
A method of incorporating the runic influence into the sorcery system and
avoiding some of the pit-falls you described would be to use the runic
formulae described in recent copies of the RQ Daily along with named
multi-point spells.
For example, Granth wants to cast Grundle's Dancing Flame spell which
has the associated runic formulae of ++ and has an MP
cost of 7 points. Grundle's Dancing Flame has a range of 10m and a duration
of 10 minutes. Granth has skill levels of 10%, 98% and 36% for the runes
of fire, movement and man respectively. So, his base chance to cast the
spell is 10%, taking the lowest of the associate runes. Also, he would have
to have at least 7 points of free intelligence to cast the spell.
You can treat the skill levels for the runes as Lores (i.e. use research rules
for determining gain, etc.). I'm definitely in favor of retaining the
ceremony rules; they add quite a bit to the game play experience . . .
"Steng, the goblins are BREAKING DOWN THE DOOR! Hurry Man!"
"Leave Steng along ! He must complete ceremony to have chance at
dispelling Beast of Darkness! You and me hold away goblins!"
The concepts behind the intensity and duration rules could be better
served by just having more costly versions of the spell (e.g. well now, the
12 point version of the Grundle's Dancing Flame spell lasts 30 minutes) *OR* by
having additional spells which can be used to increase duration. For example,
Styles Spell of Temporal Tension adds five minutes to the time for duration
based spells. Multi-spell should be retained as is.
Just my two bits!
In service,
Rich
---------------------
From: nrobinso@sirius.UVic.CA (Neil Robinson)
Subject: Runequest IV
Message-ID: <33923.nrobinso@sirius.uvic.ca>
Date: 28 May 93 17:25:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 894
Hi,
Is there an FTP site for the RQ IV rules. The new movement stuff
seems interesting. I'd ask to get it mailed, but I'd probably get
50 copies then and take down our mail server (I've done it before).
Henk,
Andrew Bell had an automated way of getting back issues of the digest.
Is there such a facility available? Could we put other stuff there?
Thanks,
Neil
Neil Robinson | "Never underestimate the power of human
nrobinso@sirius.uvic.ca | stupidity." - L. Long
2996 Dysart Rd. Victoria B.C. V9A 2K2 (604) 383-5094
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 26 May 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <9305281844.AA05727@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 28 May 93 18:44:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 895
Paul Reilly again. Will try to do another longer post this weekend.
A few things:
In reply to Bryan Maloney's reply to my Quaking Vines:
> On the mobile, possible carnivorous plants.
> They sound like chaos things to me. Plants are NOT supposed to act like that
Elves are plants. Are they Chaotic? Also, we have mobile, carnivorous
plants on Earth (Venus fly trap, etc.). If scaled-up insects can fly or even
walk without being Chaotic moving plants should be OK. War trees move.
On the other hand, I like the idea of second-class citizen plants, like
cave trolls. Up to the GM, I should think.
On Storm Bulls hacking away at plants: We had an unkillable chaos monster
that the elves had tricked in being bound in the roots of a tree (underground).
A storm buller came along and sensed Chaos in the area, started hacking
away at the tree. Luckily they figured it out in time...
_________________
In reply to Nick:
On Malkionism and the God of Time:
Perhaps the Invisible God is Arachne Solara's child and the God of Time,
and Malkion the PROPHET predicted this universal God before his rise. Thus
the Brithini, clinging to their pre-Time ways, are Atheists. Hrestol would
then be the Prophet who is inspired by the 'new' god. Since Godtime is
acausal, the Invisble God can inspire Malkion before he is 'born'. And he
can still be the Creator as well. Ideas getting tangled here...
On Deezola:
Yes, she looks shamanic. I think Poetry well up from the unconscious and
this suggested shamanism to me. Also, I think that Arachne Solara worship
seems to occur among Shamanic cultures (Beast Men, etc.) She is in the
Innermost Plane, spinning the web of the world. Lost shamans occasionally
attract her attention: some are destroyed and some are sent back as
Her priests. I also liked the image of the Queen laying on hands to heal
the sick.
Yes, it's very powerful, but any shaman can do the equivalent with no Rune
spell at all. I see a lot of Rune Magic as recovering once-natural powers
which have been lost with the general diminishing of magic. Thus at one
time Berserk was a natural ability of some warriors, now obtained through
magic. Similarly with Deezola's cult: she grants access to shamanic power.
More on her later.
Runic Sorcery: I will try to get something on this out this weekend if
possible. More Peasant spells, etc.
Interesting how Nick has a different scheme for which element goes with
which stat. Nick's makes some sense but let me explain my reasoning:
Darkness = STR: Strength is a fundamental stat for dealing with physicality
and a main attribute of Darkness creatures. As they lose
Darkness they become weaker (e.g. Trollkin.) I think that
early Darkness creatures had no set form or Size. Add
Darkness to a base human and he becomes more brutish and powerful.
Water = CON: Sort of the image of the sea as the life blood of Glorantha
inspired this one. The more water in your makeup, the harder it
is for you to bleed to death or die of thirst. People with low
CON seem dried-up.
Earth = SIZ The element of solidity and definite shape. More Earth
means more material substance.
Air = DEX The swiftly moving air gods inspired this one. Orlanth is
served by Mastakos, owner of Mobility. Air can pick up a leaf or
blow down a house. The Air phylum is Mammal, whose forte is
reaction time.
Fire = APP. Fire's sense is Vision. This inspired the idea of visual
appearance = APP. A Bird of Paradise has high APP but no Man
Rune. Birds, the phylum of Fire, have the most beautiful
Appearance of any creature.
Moon = INT
Nick says:
> There is no Lunar characteristic (INT seems inept given the Blue
> Moon has no intellect while the Red is the source of insanity).
It's clear to me from precisely these facts that Moon is associated with
the Mind. Lunar magic is Mind-affecting: Mindblast and Madness, plus
for example the Seven Mothers' spirit magics of Befuddle and Glamour.
My proposition is that White Moon is associated with INT and that the
"broken" Red and Blue aspects represented lack of intellect and insanity.
Thus the "brokenness" of the Moon element is the reason for the lack
of spells assisting INT, at least according to Lunar sages.
Nick's associations are also logical but different. However, I disagree
with Fire = INT as in this case it should be possible to enhance INT
since Fire was never broken. We agree on SIZ = Earth, others are arguable
but I will stick to the Whole White Moon = INT.
Nick's association of body parts with stats: Generally agree.
I have to agree with him also that Jar-Eel somehow got involved in the
Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death, which is the Pharoah's
renewal ritual. At one point in the ritual the participants get stuck
into a magical version of the Holy Country and are protected from outside
interference. Jar-Eel probably invaded this 'alternate dimension' to
get access to the Pharoah.
I'll have to vote for her as my favorite of the superheroes. Although
Harrek may have a surprising amount of intelligence up his sleeve...
more on that another time.
"Combat Sense": I didn't see this one. There is definitely a big difference
in how experienced warriors and neophytes see a battle, although perhaps
this can be handled with existing skills such as Scan. I don't see why
Combat Sense clutters up the sheet and more than "Morningstar" though
- we just need a few blank spaces for new skills. For example, in a
Glamour political campaign the skill of Art Appreciation could be far more
vital than Broadsword, although Fast Talk might do in a pinch.
_____________
For Joerg:
Well we all seem to agree that stats may correspond to elements but
differ on which go where! The reason I thought of stats with elements in
the first place was the medieval theory of the four humours, which are
associated with elemental qualities.
There are certainly scores of Minor Runes, plus other minor modifiers
can be used for spells. Deezola, for example, has her own Rune.
I'm sure that the Westerners use the Law Rune as is shown in GoG. If
as speculated the Invisible God is the God of Time then perhaps Law is
used for Duration. This makes sense as Chaos represents Entropy, the natural
decay of things over time (including spells). With more Law the spell can
resist this effect.
Good discussion on POW gains. In it you ask:
>(BTW, this leaves me with a reminder from a friend who favors GURPS
>resistance procedure over RuneQuest's because of its non-linearity. Any
>ideas/opinons here?)
If as I believe stats are actually logarithmic (like decibels) then the
POW chart makes plenty of sense.
I'd say also that the opinions of others might lead to POW gains. A
great hero like Jar-Eel draws energies from her masses of admirers, and
possibly from the masses of enemies who spend mana hating her. We get
into a chicken-and-egg question here.
_____________________
Brian's Digest spell:
A good one, but originally owned in Godtime by the deity Abell. Perhaps
Henkl rediscovered the powers of this deity through Heroquest?
____________________
Tom Zunder's ideas on POW gain have the advantage that they work within
the current system. I think that a person with NO overt magic should
still be able to gain POW through some sort of personal development.
Again I'll propose that gaining mastery of a skill could cause a POW
gain. His idea of Runic related POW gains could be a good one.
_________________________________
More later,
Paul
_____________________
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 27 May 1993, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 28 May 93 20:05:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 896
Some comments, since there seems to be space:
___________
Paul Reilly
>Sympathetic Targetting
Another possible use of a spell like sympathetic targetting might be
to reduce the target's resistance roll against the spell effect.
Simply subtract the number Paul calculated from the effective MP
to be overcome, and you get a working chance of success
even against notorious tappers or powerful shamans.
> Maybe the Intensity should equal Range + Duration of the other spell.
If it is the Multispell variety from the Errata, you have all spells with the
same Intensity, Range and Duration if applyable.
BTW, this variant is wide open to munchkin abuses if you have Spell matrix
enchantments with high Range, Duration or Intensity values. Imagine Munchkin
the Apprentie Sorcerer having inherited a Fly Range 5 Matrix, a Damage
Boosting Duration 6 Matrix and a Venom Intensity 5 Matrix. As soon as Munchkin
(Free INT 15) decides he needs long term Damage Resistance, he multispells
Damage Boosting (on a handy sword to be sold) and Venom (on an innocent
mayfly) out of his matrices and Damage Resistance out of an Intellect Spirit,
he spends 24 magic points, uses 7 points of free INT and 6 points out of the
Damage Boosting Matrix for Duration (giving him 8 weeks), 6 points of free INT
and 5 points out of the matrix for Intensity (resulting in 11 points of Damage
Resistance _and_ Damage Boosting) and 2 points of free INT for the two extra
spells in the Multispell, giving him an effective free INT of 24 for this
purpose. Quite horrifying, isn't it?
___________
Boris Mikey
> How these match up could be argued; this just seemed most appropriate to
> me. I also used Elemental Correspondances, which were as follows:
> Rune Metal Sense Color Weapon Phylum Statistic
> Darkness Lead Hearing Black Mace/club/sling Insect CON
> Water Mercury Taste Blue Trident/net Fish DEX
> Earth Copper Touch Green Axe Reptile SIZ
> Fire/Sky Gold Sight Yellow Spear/Bow Bird APP
> Air/Storm Silver Smell White Sword Mammal STR
> Lunar Moonrock Illumi- Red Sickle/scimitar None None
> nation
Let's see: no real metal, no real perception for the Moon Rune - the Red One
is evil, but not that much. Since Moon and Storm both occupy the middle Air,
both contest about Bronze and Silver.
Except for APP (see below:), I disagree with your statistic ties.
Darkness=SIZ: The first matter to form during creation.
Water=CON: OK, this might be argued.
(STR as alternative, swapping with Earth:
See Wachaza's Seastrength)
Earth=STR: Earth Strength like Eiritha gave to Storm Bull.
Sky/Fire=APP: In all stories about Yelm's court, appearances spoke
against young Orlanth and for Yelm.
Air/Storm=DEX: I liked John Castellucci's chess contest between Orlanth
and Yelm, having Orlanth cheating by manipulating the pieces.
Moon: Sorry. No statistic for deities missing the Compromise.
> The sense of Balance could be argued for Lunar. I used the Man rune for
> INT, and Spirit for POW. I never thought of also corresponding body parts,
> but it's a good idea. Most of the rest is from the GOG: Cults Book.
Man for INT is logical when reading Troll Pak: Midget Slashers are presented
as Trolls who lost the Man Rune, and thereby their INT! The only intelligent
species on Glorantha not tied to the Man Rune are Dragons and the Dragonewts,
and they are a special case.
POW gains:
Not a good idea to base it on crits. The better your POW, the less
challenging is a POW roll, but the easier you get a crit.
> -------
> Recovery of Rune Magics:
> Reread the Travels of Biturian Varosh (sp) and Reminiscenes of Paulis
> sections in my xerox of Cults of Prax and Cults of Terror last night (btw,
> if anyone has a *clean* xerox of CoP or CoT they'd like to sell, or even
> !gasp! the real thing, let me know) and it seems that in both of these
> people recovered rune spells quite easily. Vorosh certainly didn't spend
> hours in temples praying, unless any Issaries or Eyteries Market is a
> temple and trading is prayer. Paulis was just an initiate of Irripi Ontor,
> yet was casting runemagics right and left (Mindblast, Dismiss Elemental).
> So, there good reason that even initiates can recover some rune magics, and
> priests (such as BV) can recover them much easier than the current rules
> suggest.
>
> So, I would suggest the following framework (I haven't fleshed this out
> yet). If a priest or runelord is engaged in cult mandated activities, and
> makes a successful ceremony roll, then rune magics may be recovered at
> least every season, if not more often. This does not include all cult
> approved activities, just those which you are required to perform by your
> cult, such as trading for a Issaries, fighting Chaos and Darkness, and
> protecting the Earth for Orlanthi, fighting Chaos for SB Berserks,
> reserching for Lhankor Mhytes, and tending the sick and injured for CA's.
> If initiates are attending the priest or lord, then they may recover every
> year, or perhaps more often. This is in addition to the recovery (suggested
> by Nick Brooke and others) on holy days and high holy days for rune levels
> and initiates, respectivly, who attend services at a temple.
___________
Nick Brooke
>Not checking, I think you'll find that Resurrection comes from all Seven
>Mothers working together (as you'd expect). Queen Deezola specialises in
>the Heal Body runespell. Does that help you?
Checking, I found no mention at all in CoP. GoG Prosopaedia mentions "her
special rune in a square". How does this look like?
> In re: Peloria, he asks whether Arir = Oraya
>= Worion = Voria, id est the Pelorian goddess of Virginity / Potential
>Fertility (look at the maps and the histories...). But he doesn't know
>about the specific crops and dates you ask about...
Well, the barley bit may be very specific...
>He also points out that Asrelia = Esrola. But you all knew that,
>already...
Wouldn't have tought about it. In fact, you're getting me confused about the
generations: Asrelia is the mother of Ernalda, who in turn is mother to all
the Grain/Land Goddesses, including Esrola.
>> I liked APP as stat for Fire - that's what foppish Yelm stands for, isn't
>it?
>
>Nonsense! You are (or you aren't) a "fine figure of a Man". APP = Man
>Rune. Not Fire Rune. See Wyrm's Footnotes #5 (yes, I know most of you
>can't. Hang on a bit and I'll ask for permission to reprint this bit...)
>if you want to know what the Elements are all about.
Don't go through too much trouble, I think I can bring up the patience and
wait for Wyrms Footprints to appear... Still, I didn't know that reference.
Anyway, Man is a Form Rune, not an Element, so I'm going to defend my notion!
(See Boris above).
You might of course couple the stats to Form runes - POW=Spirit jumps into
mind, as do STR=Beast and CON=Plant. But then I get INT=Man (remember the bit
in Troll Pack about some troll varieties having lost the Man Rune, and now
having fixed INT?), and trouble with the rest. SIZ=Stone ("mineral life")???
DEX? APP?
>> I heavily doubt that Moon stands for Balance.
>
>Tough luck, mate. That's what she's all about.
Got me there. I meant Red Moon. And she simply abuses the balance poor old
Glorantha will see intact only when the white moon has risen...
>Buy David a drink for me, and I'll pay you back some time. Like Jase, I'm
>drunk tonight.
At your service there... Mind if we join you from afar?
--
-- -- -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen...
Joerg Baumgartner
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 28 May 1993, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 29 May 93 07:41:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 897
Greetings. Greg Fried here.
I'd like to respond to Paul Reilly's excellent posting on sorcery. I will
confess that I am so uncomfortable with the RQ III sorcery system that I
simply ignore it, so I will restrict my thoughts to broad conceptual issues
and hope that proves useful too.
My sense is that most of us fell in love with RQ because, unlike games like
D&D, the myths and the system gave real texture to characters and to the
cultic magic those characters wield. SOmehow, RQ III stumbled and produced a
sorcery system that seems more like an outgrowth of a game system. How do we
fix this, given that -- as Paul points out -- Avalon Hill cannot be expected
just to scrap the campaigns it has published? One possible answer, very
broadly sketched: Develop a sorcery system, as many have suggested, based
much more closely upon the runes themselves, using runes as 'nouns' and
'verbs' in magical sentences. This would be the fundamental sorcery system.
But here's the clincher: not all (or many, or even any -- since Time began)
sorcerers have complete knowedge of this true sorcery. Then, the sorcery
system outlined in RQ III could stand as one of many schools of partial, or
fallen sorcery. THis would permit what so much of us love in RQ: the
development of many different kinds of sorcery (on the analogy with the even
more numerous cults) given different histories.
Without going into specifics too much, what I'd like to see in a rune sorcery
system is a much larger array of spells which would be thought of as 'proven'
rune 'sentences'. In addition sorcerers should be able to wing it by
inventing their own senstences, even on the spot, with some system to
calculate how hard this is. RQ is largely about interpretation: cultists
agonizing about how to best emulate their god, and even reforging the meaning
of gods on the hero plane (qv the discussions about Humakt in the Digest
recently!). Sorcerers should be engaged in pushing the limits of the meaning
of the runes themselves. Sure, the Death rune means death, but it also means
severing, separation, pain, hate etc. Different gods appropriate different
interpretative aspects of the same rune; Humakt reads Truth as honor, Lhankor
Mhy reads it as knowledge. Sorcerers manipulate the nuance of meaning in the
runes in devising their spell 'sentences'. (By the way, in English, we call
them magic 'spells' because it was once thought that anyone who had power
over the art of writing, the representation of reality, could 'spell' you!)
If we can devise a sytem whereby we give each rune its obvious,
not-so-obvious, and really-reaching-for-it interpretations, then we might
devise a way to calculate how hard it would be to put together certain spell
sentences. The current sorcery system just represents a small selection of
successful sentences.
As far as the present sorcery mechanics go, it seems to me too many of the
spells relate to game mechanics. Something is wrong when you've got guys
like in Griffin Mountain with 20 HP in in a location, 20 AP and 20 damage
boosting! This ruins the feel of the game.
Also, why are all spells just as easy as each other to learn? They should be
more or less difficult depending on the interpretative weirdness of their
runic 'spelling, perhaps on the sorcerer's level of mastery with the runes
concerned. Perhaps different schools 'tie' the magician closer with certain
runes, making learning and casting certain spells easier. Instead of having
a % score in each spell, have a skill in spell-casting alone, with plus and
minus given for the difficulty of the spell, its range and intensity, etc.
OK. Enough. These are just ideas. A wish list for the FLAVOR of sorcery
I'd like to see. Those of you working on the mechanics, do with it as you
will, and good luck!
-- Greg Fried