(Message rqd:3)
Return-Path:
Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (sunnl) by homeland.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1)
id AA04438; Wed, 2 Jun 93 17:17:13 +0200
Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e)
id AA23712; Wed, 2 Jun 93 17:16:59 +0200
Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1)
id AA04669; Wed, 2 Jun 93 17:15:31 +0200
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 93 17:15:31 +0200
Message-Id: <9306021515.AA04669@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 02 Jun 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.
Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: hebert@uclink.berkeley.edu (Brian Hebert)
Subject: A Tool for Modelling Social Interactions
Message-ID: <46356.hebert@uclink.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 1 Jun 93 19:52:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 914
Quite some time ago, Mike Dawson posted the following to the digest
(vol 5, no 7, 1/19/91):
> RUNNING A LIVING WORLD WITHOUT GETTING BURIED IN DETAILS
> OK, the pcs have just killed the mayor in a brothel, and the
> Humakti High Sword for the town has witnessed that they did it in
> self defense. They hold solid evidence of the entire city
> council's involvement with the local Krarsht smuggling ring, and
> are too tough for the average local bad boys to silence easily.
> They go public. What happens now?
> Most refs, I am afraid, have a great deal of trouble trying
> to figure things out in a rational way. In fact, I think many
> refs are uninterested in figuring it out rationally--they just
> wing it, basing their decisions on what they think will be the
> most interesting twist.
> So what? What's wrong with making the plot twist in
> interesting ways? Nothing at all, if your PCs are more
> interested in story than free will. However, to my mind, just
> "winging it" for dramatic impact has some problems. When it
> comes to the larger effects PCs can have in the game it is
> EXACTLY the same as "winging it" while running hand to hand
> combat. If the ref is going to intervene capriciously in the
> fate of the PCs on the large scale, then how is that different
> from fudging die rolls during combat? In both cases, don't
> opponents succeed or fail on the whim of the ref? How can the
> players feel any true sense of accomplishment when the ref is
> juggling their fates from hand to hand in order to create "a good
> story?"
> "There is a difference," you say. "Combat has rules, but
> the political and social interactions involving a scandal-ridden
> town council are not codified. They are not part of a game
> system and MUST be estimated and guessed at by the ref. If he
> has to guess, why not guess in the direction of the best story?"
> In response, I say that the problem is that there is no
> system for the interaction of people above the small military
> unit in RQ (White Bear & Red Moon notwithstanding). What a ref
> needs, for any game, is a system that allows him to track the
> health, power, ability, influence and members of groups more
> complex than a small unit. It needs to be possible to find out
> what happens when the PCs discredit the town council, spread
> nasty rumors about the baronial guard captain, provoke a
> citywide fight for dominance between rival gangs, or get a clan
> declared anathema by the Ecclesiarch of Leplain.
> Any suggestions? Anyone care to outline the problem of
> making a system?
>
> MARTIN CRIM ADDS: ... when Mike talks about the living world, he's really
> talking about a framework for dealing with problems like this:
> there's a mood on the street (or in Pavis, a mood in each
> neighborhood) and people can manipulate that mood magically.
> Some GM's would ignore this, leaving the players without a clue
> as to something their characters would know and consider
> important. Others would fudge it, hoping to attract player
> interest through an interesting story line. Mike is a
> "clockmaker God" GM, and wants a game system for tracking and
> resolving such things.
Should a codified system exist for running large social interactions?
I think it depends on the group (I believe many players would not be
bothered by having the plot tweaked toward a more interesting story
occasionally. After all, the ref has created the scenario and would
probably have written these new plot elements into the campaign if their
situation had been forseen. Others may react with the same concern over
fudging and free will that Mike suggests.)
Whether such a system is required or not, I think a well designed system
could be useful, interesting and conducive to roleplaying at the social/
political level. It could also be used as crib notes for more *realistic*
fudging ;')
In thinking about this problem, I remembered a tool that Chaosium presented
for control of NPC's. One version appears in Griffin Mountain on their blank
NPC sheet and I believe that something similar is used in Pendragon.
Their system uses paired opposites to define a personality trait (eg Cowardly/
Brave) then assigns a score of 1-100 to describe that NPC's tendency on that
continuum. Whenever Bravery is tested for that NPC a %ile roll is made.
If the rolled number falls below their Bravery score then they react with
cowardice, above and they react with courage. (eg. Ulf the city gaurd sees
an enormous shadow sliding across the courtyard he's watching. He's
fairly brave with a score of 20 in Bravery. He rolls a 60, easily exceeding
his minimum. He sounds the alarm and readies his weapon. Next round he
actually sees what's casting the shadow and the ref assigns a 20% penalty for
this horror. Ulf rolls a 37, just missing the adjusted requirement of 40 and
retires in good order. Had he rolled 05 he might have dropped his spear and
routed.)
This basic system of assigning a numerical value to paired attitudes
can also be used to model the feelings of social groups toward other groups,
institutions and principles. This can be as general or as detailed as you
desire. WARNING: This has not been play-tested. If you find it interesting
or useful, good. Comments and suggestions are welcome.
My proposal for a "character sheet" for social units follows. It includes
space to name the unit, identify any larger structure of which it is part
and those smaller structures which comprise it.
The attitudes of the unit influence the attitudes of its superior unit and
reflect the aggregate of the attitudes of its subordinates. Pick your
level of detail.
Standard cultural and religious templates could be devised to use as defaults
with only signicant local deviation noted on the sheet. (If people like this
idea I'd be interested to see some of these templates posted. I have neither
the time nor expertise in "official" Glorantha Lore to undertake it.)
The "Reaction" number on the Attitude list defines the degree of negative or
positive feeling "Toward" a specific institution or individual. The
character of that feeling is summarized in the "Attitude" field.
Blank spaces on the attitude list can be populated with local institutions
(eg: guilds, cults, gangs, powerful families, etc) and individuals (ie:
prominent personages -- including the PC's themselves perhaps).
=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Social Unit:
Standard Template Used:
Subordinate to:
Superior to:
Attitudes:
Reaction Toward Attitude
Neg -- -- Pos ("National" Gov't: )( )
Neg -- -- Pos (Regional Gov't: )( )
Neg -- -- Pos (Local Gov't: )( )
Neg -- -- Pos (Religion: )( )
Neg -- -- Pos (Strangers )( )
Neg -- -- Pos ( )( )
Neg -- -- Pos ( )( )
Neg -- -- Pos ( )( )
.
.
.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
In the example given by Mike (exposing the corrupt town council), the town's
population might already have a fairly poor opinion of their "leaders":
Neg -- 75 -- Pos (Local Gov't: Town Council )(Contempt, Distrust )
When the PC's stand up and make their accusations the town rolls a 45. This
falls well within their unfavorable attitudes toward their government so
they have no problem believing the story. Add modifiers for the PC's
successful oratory (-10), the corraboration of the locally admired Humakti
(-15), local fear of chaos (-10), the strength of the PC evidence (-15) and
the result is now -5. The mob marches on Town Hall with torches! Had the
council been held in favor, the PC's fumbled their oratory, the local Humakti
largely disliked and chaos a remote concern, things might have gone quite
differently. (Suggestions on how to codify these modifers?)
Another important modifier should be the *content* of any appeal which PC's
make. Perhaps PC's have learned that the local farmers particularly resent
new grain taxes. If this can be worked into their appeal ("...and these
chaos loving scoundrels have had the nerve to raise taxes on hard working men
and women...") a positive modifier should apply.
The advantage to role playing under such a system is the incentive it creates
to gather social information and play politics. If the PC's are unsure of who's
likely to wind up riding a rail out of town if they oppose the local government
then they *might* want to do a little research first. If PC's are prominent
enough that they themselves might have a positive or negative value on the
unit sheet, (affecting their later efforts) then they may want to try to
improve their social standing first. "Here, let me help you with that.
The drinks are on me!"
Common knowledge of a social unit might indicate general positive or negative
feelings held without giving any indication of degree. As further information
is gathered, PC knowledge of degree will improve. (Eg. Before going public,
the PC's go for dinner at a local Inn. A loud drunk at the bar makes a
disparaging joke about the town council which is met by general and sustained
laughter. Hmm. The PC's knew that there was general antipathy toward local
gov't, but not to this degree). Success in Scan, might have noted that those
laughing were mostly farmers and that a table of traders had not joined in.
Maybe the PC's should research or lobby the traders for a while (and pitch any
public speeches at the farmers. Read my lips: No New Taxes!) A PC adds a
nastier joke at the expense of the council (it helps if the player can think of
a funny one). General laughter again confirms the strong antipathy (but the
traders storm out -- so much for lobbying them.) Etc.
One interesting aspect of this system (a feature, not a bug)is the potential
for complex and contradictory results. Perhaps the townsmen distrust their
officials but are very pious and do not believe in challenging the cult-
sanctioned government. PC efforts might result in a success on the Local
Gov't attitude but failure at Religion. The townsmen might agree with the
PC's but do nothing. Or maybe this reflects a split in town opinion at a
subordinate level; one subgroup sides with the PC's and another with the
Town council.
What this system does not yet address is relative influence of social units.
(eg. So what if the farmers agree with you? If the traders block you then you
aren't going anywhere. Maybe the tinsmiths agree strongly with you, how does
that influence the metalworkers guild of which they are part? Etc.)
Again, these are first draft ideas. Have at them.
Brian Hebert
---------------------
From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: RQ4 Character Creation
Message-ID: <9306012207.AA19921@hp2.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 1 Jun 93 22:07:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 915
Since Loren's RQ4 Playtest mailing list doesn't seem to be up yet....
about that character generation system...
Has anyone collected any statistics on how long characters of
point value X take to create, under RQ4?
I've only done two characters, now, and admittedly, both were
moderately complex, but the times seemed VERY high.
Here's my data:
First character:
45 year old Noble + Warrior + Initiate, 85 points, 4 hours.
Second chaacter:
35 year old Noble + Warrior + Initiate, 65 points, 2.5 hours.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- - - - ---john j medway----------- - - - -
-- - - - - - - ---jmedway@zycor.lgc.com--- - - - - - - - --
--- - - - - - - ---landmark/zycor---------- - - - - - - - ---
---- - - ---512/292-2325------------ - - - ----
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
From: dustin@ocf.Berkeley.EDU (Dustin Tranberg)
Subject: sorcery duration
Message-ID: <199306012232.AA06916@earthquake.berkeley.edu>
Date: 1 Jun 93 08:32:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 916
Paul Reilly brought up a good criticism of RQIII's sorcery Duration
rules. A couple of thoughts:
1) SInce only apprenticed sorcerors can do Duration at all, this is
one small control on possible numbers of people doing industrial-
scale long-duration spells. It takes more work to be an
Apprentice Sorceror than a cult initiate.
2) One somewhat helpful "fix" might be to disallow Duration from being
built into any sorcery matrix. This helps a little, but not enough.
3) This is something that Burton Choinski brought up in the context
of Rune Sorcery, but could apply generally: How about if long-
duration sorcery holds the MPs used until the spell wears off?
After all, someone who looks at an enspelled object with, say,
Mystic Vision will SEE the magic points in it. They've gotta
be there, and you don't get them back until the spell wears off.
This last notion brings up some interesting ideas. What if you use
a POW spirit's MPs to throw long-duration magic, and then let it go?
I kind of like the idea of a sorceror summoning POW spirits to steal
their MPs, and then discarding them like empty crabshells. This
could be one more good reason for shamans et al to dislike sorcerors.
Also, since you would need hundreds of POW spirits to perform the
kind of industrial spell casting Paul Reilly warns us about, this
rule provides another limit on industrial magic, which is that
doing a whole lot of summoning all the time, particularly from one
place, would be quite risky, probably too risky to contemplate.
Still working out the ramifications,
Dustin
---------------------
From: gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell)
Subject: Sorcery and ideological arguements with N.B!
Message-ID: <9306020120.AA19682@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 2 Jun 93 05:21:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 917
Sorry about the > everywhere, this bounced because I forgot to include
a subject. Since I can't find where I saved it, I'm just sending it
back...
> > Paul Reilly here.
> >research process. I assume that the "known" spells are the result of
> >very successful research. Thus a crit on your Magic Theory will give
> >a spell equal to one of the listed spells, a special will give one
> >essentially equal but with minor side effects or special requirements,
> >a normal success gives you a kludge that works in this case but has
> >drawbacks that keep it from being generally useful, a failure means
>
> What are the actual skill mechanics used in your system? Are the runes
> added on to the old system of Intensity, Range, Duration plus skills
> for each spell, or is there another mechanism for determining chance of
> casting spells?
>
> PS Your ideas for runic sorcery are the best I've seen.
>
> >From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
> >Subject: Re: Sorcery, part 1
>
> Agreed concerning the way long duration spells can ruin the world. As
> a limitation for limiting the maximum no. of spells that a sorcerer can
> maintain, how about an analogy with rune magic: as you can't regain a rune
> spell that is still in effect, you can't regain the magic points equal
> to the intensity of a spell that is still in effect. It could be argued
> that those MP are needed to keep the spell in existence
>
> This may actually be too limiting, since storage crystals (that can't
> regenerate MP) would only be of use casting instant spells: a sorcerer
> would need a LOT of power spirits.
>
> >From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
> >Perhaps the nature of his Supreme Being changed over time? Note that the
> >One God has two aspects defined in the Prosopaedia, those of Creator and
> >Invisible God. Malkion may have worshipped a different version of the One
>
> Well this (and the idea that the Invisible God is Time) explains who
> the hell the Malkioni are worshipping, which has bothered me for quite
> a while. After all, they do get a reply to their sacrifice. It also
> explains why there is no time rune and why no-one worships Time. Of
> course, the Malkioni would reply that there is no problem with their god:
> who the hell is everyone else worshipping? This discussion would make no
> sense to the Malikioni: the Great Compromise isn't part of their myth
> cycle, and Lhankhor Mhy is a false god. That explanation would satisfy
> the various polytheistic cults who accept the Great Compromise, and the
> God Learners (who were also polytheists, come to think of it). Are there
> any other pantheons that don't have a myth of the compromise. Do the
> Pamalteli? The Kraloreli?
>
>
> >> Jar-Eel "Let's kill the Pharoah in His Bath" the Murderess
> >
> >Not only are you being rude about my Patron Saint, but they weren't in his
> >bath at the time. They were out in the fertile fields of Esrolia. Where
> >else would the Pharoah reenact his replacement for the Year Sons' ritual,
> >his annual self-sacrifice to channeling the Earthpower through himself, as
> >Dying and Rising God of the Holy Country? (How Jar-eel got to take part is
> >another story... as is what she did to him).
> >
>
> Where did you find this information about the Pharoah? I suffer from
> only getting interested in RQ after 1984 (significant year, huh?) when
> RQIII came out, and I don't have anything from before that.
>
>
> As for Jar-Eel, my feelings for hers are roughly similar to your's for
> Meriatan ie a Nazi. The planned breeding aspect, "blessed by grace, beauty
> and intelligence" all sound a bit "master race" to me.
>
> An interesting thing about Meriatan: his description is qualitatively
> different from the other heroes: we get a little interview with him,
> rather than a list of their achievements, past and future. I wonder
> what interviews with the other heroes would sound like? Would Argrath
> sound like Yasser Arafat? Harrek like Stallone or Scharzennegger (but
> certainly with a lot of "ughs!" and "Motherf***ers" in there)? I
> think Jar-Eel might end up sounding a lot like Meriatan, though in a
> very proper Pelorian upper class, inbred accent.
>
>
>
> >_____________
> >A Last Point:
> >
> >The proposed new "Combat Sense"for warriors is about as welcome an addition
> >to RuneQuest as RQ4's "Maneuver" skill. Unnecessary character-sheet
> >cluttering! Out on them both!
>
> Seconded!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Graeme Lindsell Email: gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
> Research School of Chemistry Phone: (06) 249 3575
> Australian National University Fax: (06) 249 0750
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Graeme Lindsell Email: gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
Research School of Chemistry Phone: (06) 249 3575
Australian National University Fax: (06) 249 0750
---------------------------------------------------------------------