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Date: Thu, 3 Jun 93 17:16:10 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 03 Jun 1993, part 4
Precedence: junk
Status: OR
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.
Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: marks@slough.mit.edu (Mark S. c/o Tom Yates)
Subject: This, that, and the other.
Message-ID: <9306030429.AA18169@Sun.COM>
Date: 3 Jun 93 04:32:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 934
Sorcery
I am somewhat surprised at the current discussion of "fixes"
for the RQIII sorcery rules. Wouldn't it be more useful to talk
about the RQIV sorcery draft? The holes have been fixed, Free
Int has been abolished, long duration is much tougher, and
Stafford has been consulted about the societal implications.
(One interesting Staffordian insight - spirits are *much* less
available in the West.) (Which is to be expected, *our* dead go
to Solace) (or perhaps the Praxians are correct, and monotheists
are fools without souls)
The rewriting of the Runequest rules is quite properly
following an evolutionary, not a revolutionary, course. Many
gamers who are running or playing in Western campaigns would be
rather annoyed to see the foundation of the system change
radically. Look at the outrage generated by the changes in
RQIII, which are quite marginal compared to which would be
necessary if we changed to a runic sorcery system.
Some of the problems people have with sorcery probably
results from the disastrous RQIII decision to present sorcery
outside of it's social context. Playing in a Western Campaign
can give one a greater appreciation of the culture and religion
of the West, and of the effects of sorcery on play. Perhaps
some of the fixes that people have suggested for the problems of
sorcery would be more useful if they were developed in the
context of an ongoing Western campaign.
Indeed, the many of the problems found in the unfamiliar
RQIII sorcery system go unnoticed in the comfortable familiar
Divine Magic system. Some have decried the effect of long
duration sorcery, yet the extension spell can have an equivalent
effect, take the following example:
Count Sorcer of Bormandy and his friend Theo the Orlanthi
fought in a great battle. They each captured a minor noble; and
each noble was ransomed for about 10,000L. What can each do with
his money? Count Sorcer can get his Str, Con, Siz, Dex, and App
raised by eleven points for a full year (note again that almost
nobody in Glorantha could actually cast these spells, under
RQIII rules, or under the more restrictive proposed RQIV rules).
This is a powerful effect indeed. Theo would be hard pressed to
equal it. Or would he? Consider the following purchases (made
under RQIV draft rules, RQIII would have permitted even greater
purchases) Theo buys a casting of Shield 10 for a year,
Great Parry for a year, Dark Walk for a year, and then decides to
buy a Guided Teleportation Matrix (he wants to start his own
society altering long range communication network).
Note also that there are more acolytes and priests to create
extension matrices than there are sorcerers to create sorcery
matrices. Extension matrices will work with any spell. Sorcery
matrices will only work on one spell. Divine magic users can
also use Truestone. In the Sun County temple there is a
Truestone with extension 28.
Pow Gain Rolls
The RQIV rules have the gamemaster assigning Pow gain checks
checks subjectively, based on the amount of magic use and spirit
combat the character has done. This would seem to satisfy most
of the complaints people have with the current system. I
personally think the old system was fine.
Changing Rune Magic
Giving initiates reusable rune magic creates a world much
more magical than the Glorantha I have read about. Would any
reasonable person become a priest if that meant that they would
have to give up 80% of their time and income in return for
regaining spells on a seasonal rather than yearly basis? I
think not. Initiates already get magic they can use again and
again. Spirit magic.
Mark Sabalauskas
.................................................................
It's better to steal the Candle of Eternal Light than to
curse the darkness. - God Learner Proverb
---------------------
From: henkl@glorantha (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Missing issues
Message-ID: <9306030829.AA15664@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 3 Jun 93 12:29:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 935
> From: "Neil Robinson"
> Sender: nrobinso@sirius.UVic.CA
> Message-Id: <32989.nrobinso@sirius.uvic.ca>
> To: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
> Subject: Missing issues
>
> Henk,
> My mail server has been on the fritz since the weekend. Would
> it be possible for you to resend me the digest from May 29 until
> today (June 2).
People from all over the world seem to have missed issues this
weekend...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Neil
>
> Oh, and how was Eindhoven? When I was playing there (84-85), the only games
> we had were one copy of Traveller, a copy of 'Oog van de Meesters' (I think,
> my Dutch is very rusty), and a photocopy of RQ II I got sent from Canada.
> Hopefully things are better now.
Eindhoven was great. First time ever that we had a *real* trade show.
I spoke with the organiser and he seemed pleased with the overall outcome.
So we may see a repeat of this.
I didn't play, instead I walked around for chat and gossip.
I met Charlie Krank, who did promotion for CoC.
--
Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[] | RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
---------------------
From: F.Fontana@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Fabio Fontana)
Subject: Questions about two handed weapon use.
Message-ID: <9306031107.AA25099@Sun.COM>
Date: 3 Jun 93 13:07:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 936
Hello,
I am new to RQ3 (and the digest for that matter) and I have a couple
of questions about mechanics.
What are the penalties for using two weapons? On page 51 of the Players
Manual it says that off hand weapons start with a base chance of 0.5%, do
the actually mean "0.5 per cent chance" or half the normal base chance or
something like that? Are there any other penalties for using two weapons?
Also a couple of points just to make sure I have got it right:
skills for melee weapons always go by group (both when you get the skill
through previous training and by adventuring) so that an increase in the
skill in one of the weapons in the group increases your chance with all the
weapons in the group. On the other hand missile weapons skills are separate
(except for bows and crossbows). Is this correct?
If you are wielding a single weapon, you can strike, parry or dodge but
only do ONE of those actions per round, right?
Finally, what is a primary weapon? I have seen it mentioned in the Primitive
Hunter skill list and nowhere else....
I need some elightenment....
Fabio
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue and Wed
Message-ID:
Date: 3 Jun 93 15:13:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 937
Joerg speaking
Traffic again! and quit a lot to answer, so I'll try to keep my quotations
short:
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 895
> In reply to Nick:
On Malkionism and the God of Time:
Perhaps the Invisible God is Arachne Solara's child and the God of Time,
and Malkion the PROPHET predicted this universal God before his rise. Thus
the Brithini, clinging to their pre-Time ways, are Atheists. Hrestol would
then be the Prophet who is inspired by the 'new' god. Since Godtime is
acausal, the Invisble God can inspire Malkion before he is 'born'. And he
can still be the Creator as well. Ideas getting tangled here...
<
I like that! Finally a way to separate Brithini and Vadeli from the rest
of the western church!
> On Deezola:
Yes, she looks shamanic. [...] Also, I think that Arachne Solara worship
seems to occur among Shamanic cultures (Beast Men, etc.) She is in the
Innermost Plane, spinning the web of the world. Lost shamans occasionally
attract her attention: some are destroyed and some are sent back as Her
priests.
<
Which reminds me to an early concept of Spirit healing I wanted to use in
may campaign (and didn't, rereading the spirit rules):
Near-fatal or crippling wounds or a severe disease deliver a character
into comatose state. The shaman summons/captures a healing spirit and
releases it on the character, binding it (no enchantment) to the victims
soul. Victim and healing spirit together battle the disease/wound,
reducing the damage if successful. Slowly, mind you - a crippling wound
should be undone only as slow as in sorcery regeneration, and no regrowth
of lost parts; a disease will take it's time to be cured, only the chances
of success are enhanced.
In reply to my contribution to the POW-gain debate:
> If as I believe stats are actually logarithmic (like decibels) then the POW chart makes
plenty of sense.
<
If, for which I haven't seen the rel evidence yet. And if the stats are
logarithmic, to which base?
---
Greg Fried in X-RQ-ID: 897
> I'd like to respond to Paul Reilly's excellent posting on sorcery.
[...]
Somehow, RQ III stumbled and produced a sorcery system that seems more
like an outgrowth of a game system.
<
An argument my foremost sorcerer's player keeps running with me, and where
we agree to a certain extent.
> [...]
As far as the present sorcery mechanics go, it seems to me too many of the
spells relate to game mechanics. Something is wrong when you've got guys
like in Griffin Mountain with 20 HP in in a location, 20 AP and 20 damage
boosting! This ruins the feel of the game.
<
Exactly this is what gave sorcery a bad name among RQ2-players! (I've got
a discussion running on that in Free INT) The easiest way around this is:
Forbid it when GMing. (BTW, game balance and feel is destroyed by Rune
Levels with Shield 10 and Truesword plus Bladesharp 6, too...)
>
Also, why are all spells just as easy as each other to learn? They should
be more or less difficult depending on the interpretative weirdness of
their runic 'spelling, perhaps on the sorcerer's level of mastery with the
runes concerned.
<
Good idea!
>
Perhaps different schools 'tie' the magician closer with certain runes,
making learning and casting certain spells easier.
<
That's what runic ties are al about, aren't they?
>
Instead of having a % score in each spell, have a skill in spell-casting
alone, with plus and minus given for the difficulty of the spell, its
range and intensity, etc.
<
No! This removes the real limit sorcerers have: to learn each spell as
different skill. If we make up a system usng runic ties instead of
specific spells, we do have this skill already: it's called intensity. But
if we allow specific formulas to be trained like spells as they are now,
each specific formula it's own skill.
>
[...] A wish list for the FLAVOR of sorcery I'd like to see.
<
Tastes good!
---
Brandon Brylawski in X-RQ-ID: 911
> I agree that duration spells should have SEVERE limitations, expecially
in Glorantha, where all other magics, spirit and divine, have very little
duration (some, like bless crops, have a lasting effect, but those work in
a very limited sphere and are part of the culture that they operate in).
<
How about making long term duration (or long Range) ritual magic (1 hour
per magic point), eating up a whole day for just one long duration spell?
Restrict use of multispell to one target, and your apprentice sorcerer
maybe still could keep 20 men in Damage boost, if that's all he does. For
non-ritual duration I like the squared duration proposal...
On bound spirits:
I was told last weekend that to command/control/dominate a bound spirit to
do something, you had to give up one of your combat actions. That may be
different for familiars, but else this slows the effects you mentioned a
lot.
While I too dislike the characters carrying around masses of enchantments,
I hesitate to have permanent POW sacrifices to be refreshed. I advise my
player characters to include some clever conditions in their enchantments,
like "only the maker and those willingly given the artifact can use it"
(the latter to make it possible to use an artifact as ransom...)
I don't quite undestand what you mean with "A POW spirit with 10 points of
power effectively doubles one's spirit magic ability". The chance for a
success stays the same, only benefit is that you keep your own magic
points for defense and overcoming purposes.
I liked your classification, though, provided that INT spirits still had
their 2D10 POW or higher. Instead of rare etc. you could say outer/inner
spirit plane...
POW to bind a Spirit: How about one point for each stat die?
Rebinding spirits: What do you mean? Is the spirit freed, and you have to
force it back into the enchantment, or does the enchantment get void? (In
this case, which I don't like, how are you going to handle RQ2-style
storage crystals?)
---
Arganth in X-RQ-ID: 912:
Cult Points: Nice concept, how do you gain them? Can you dirrectly trade
them?
Attempts to DI: Do you treat this as a spell (RQ2-style?)
Weapon length ignored: My little experience in melee tells me that to get
round a longer weapon, more than a simple maneuver success is needed,
because that other guy tends to back up as son as I get round his spear.
One reason why I don't like any combat grid - it leads to the impression
that characters dig in their heels an stand and fight. No circling, no
backing up/rushing forth/closing up.
I agree that maneuver skil as proposed for RQ4 is a bit clumsy, but
nevertheless something has to be done there.
Brian Hebert in X-RQ-ID: 914:
Attitudes:
Now here we get our data sheet clogged up. As Arganth mentioned, one
easily forgets about this multitude of attitudes...
Everytime I see this it ranks of alignment and the like, though I have to
agree that it works with Pendragon.
---
Dustin Tranberg in X-RQ-ID: 915:
Duration in Sorcery:
On my world, apprentice sorcerers are comparable to acolytes, not
initiates (these correspond to pupils).
> 3) This is something that Burton Choinski brought up in the context of
Rune Sorcery, but could apply generally: How about if long-duration
sorcery holds the MPs used until the spell wears off? After all, someone
who looks at an enspelled object with, say, Mystic Vision will SEE the
magic points in it. They've gotta be there, and you don't get them back
until the spell wears off.
<
I'm afraid this won't quite work since it would not allow the use of magic
point matrices/dead crystals. Things would be different for a warded
spell, as suggested earlier. In this case I can imagine a POW-spirit or a
magic point storage device being blocked by the ongoing ward. It's similar
to a Ghoul spirit's POW being blocked while incorporated - no magic points
regainable. So you might view such a ward as an undead?
---
Graeme Lindsell in X-RQ-ID: 917 on the same line:
>
Agreed concerning the way long duration spells can ruin the world. As a
limitation for limiting the maximum no. of spells that a sorcerer can
maintain, how about an analogy with rune magic: as you can't regain a rune
spell that is still in effect, you can't regain the magic points equal
to the intensity of a spell that is still in effect. It could be argued
that those MP are needed to keep the spell in existence
This may actually be too limiting, since storage crystals (that can't
regenerate MP) would only be of use casting instant spells: a sorcerer
would need a LOT of power spirits.
<
Sorry, the spirit wielding character is the shaman, not the sorcerer.
If he's a tapper, he'll just use tapped magic points, which are lost
anyway. If not a tapper, why make him evil (not being able to regain magic
points is a characteristic trait of the undead, e.g. ghouls/ghoul
spirits)?
About Malkioni:
> After all, they do get a reply to their sacrifice.
Do they? GoG doesn't mention this explicitly.
And why should they? After all the creator can produce life force, so why
tap into those piddly bits of human life force?
---
Greg Fried's Cult of Uralog: (X-RQ-ID: 918)
Sounds like an interesting setup. Do you have your other deities ready as
well?
---
Graeme Lindsell in X-RQ-ID: 921
I think Flamal has Infinity becaus he stands for continued creation, as do
the Invisible God and Uleria (well, procreation). I'd expect it for
Hykim/Mikyh, too (GoG has "varies").
---
Henk Langefeld in X-RQ-ID: 923
>
malcolm@num-alg-grp.co.uk (Malcolm Cohen) writes:
>>
The problems I have with RQ3 sorcery are:
Free INT -- does not have the right "feel", effects are not nice
Intensity skill -- chance of casting a spell of intensities >1 is the same
for intensity 2 as for intensity 20.
Duration skill -- chance of casting a spell of duration 1 year is the
same as for 20 minutes.
<<
>
I see what you're getting at...
<
>> The basic solution to this is to allow any manipulation of the spells
characteristics, not limited by "Free INT". Further, I consider each
MP-worth's of manipulation (both increased intensity, increased range and
increased duration) to increase the difficulty of the spell by 5% (i.e.
reduce the spell-casting success roll).
<<
>
So a sorceror casting damage boost 4 with a basic spell skill of 34% would
have a chance of 14% with this rule. I like it.
<
This is very much the system the swedish Basic Roleplaying variant "Drakar
och Demoner" uses for its magic system. In my Non-Glorantha campaign I've
incorporated this as "Low Sorcery" or "guild magic" in feudal cultures, to
emulate the "Path of lesser magic" from Raymond Feist's Midkemia novels.
It's basically a skill-version of spirit magic with linear cost increase
for manipulated intensity, range or duration. I complemented this with the
Range/Duration tables from RQ3 sorcery when used in a ritual spell,
"eating up" ceremony Skill in 5% pieces. Thus the total amount of long
Range and long-term duration was limited by the ceremony skill, the
remnants of which could be used to increase success chances. Each 5%
ceremony "eaten up" for rage or duration prolonged the casting time like
one additional D6, and each magic point used in excess of one reduces the
casting chance by 5%. If a character wanted to circumvent this 5% penalty,
he could learn the spell for two points of Free INT (No, Henk, not yet
obsolete ;-).
Sorry, this got out a little confusing.
---
Henk in X-RQ-ID: 924
>
Suggestion to limit the (ab)use of bound spirits:
Make it impossible for bound spirits to regenerate MPs while being bound.
This would have the same effect as putting a slave collar on a person...
<
Makes them qute one-use, doesn't it?
The effect I see is:
"Okay, this one's empty, I release it, since I do know its true name. Next
weekend is summoning session, boys!"
---
Harry Sigerson (& Sam Phillips) in X-RQ-ID: 925
>
Joerg again: "luck rolls .. a concept I havent used once in four years of
.. Runequest)".
Why not, Joerg?
<
First of all because my players were (in my opinion rightfully)
complaining the overPOWering influence of this stat (pun intended). It's
an almost purely positive stat with just one (slightly artificial)
disadvantage (stealth), but rules all magic.
Then one of my players' characters successfully DI-ed and saved the whole
group, ending up with a POW of 4. Why should this character be unlucky
form now on? Didn't his deity show him a favour?
>
We have always found them rather good for those situations when only the
favour of the gods can make a difference. How would you GM a gamble? A
fluke? Remembering to bring that vital piece of equipment which you
thought you had but you forgot to write onto your character sheet?..
<
Quite harshly: Gambling has something to do with chance and how to
manioulate this -> DEX, or the appropriae skill. Remembering requires INT,
not POW, so when I'm soft they get an INT*3 roll, when not, they forgot
it.
>
Mind you, we may be guilty of the POW roll not to be spotted (A major RQ
heresy and a contradiction in terms).. But then again maybe we haven't
ever been that stupid.
-- POW*3 says we didn't.
<
Nothing to do with stupid, just personal likes and dislikes. I'll ignore
that last roll, though :-)
Final note:
Henk, did you attach the X-RQ-IDs to the earlier dailies, too? (I assume
you did so systematically)
If so, I'd FTP them for easier filing.
Joerg
--
-- -- -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen...
Joerg Baumgartner