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Date: Mon, 7 Jun 93 17:15:53 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 07 Jun 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com (boris)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 05 Jun 1993
Message-ID: <199306061633.AA19110@batman.b11.ingr.com>
Date: 6 Jun 93 16:33:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 982
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Greg Fried wrote:
> John Medway:
> Thanks for the support (finally!) on combat sense! Anything to give ducks a
> fighting chance!
I also have no problems with this. Granted, I would most likely seldom
use it, but I could see it coming in handy from time to time. It
certainly doesn't hurt to have it listed.
> Joerg:
> Yes, I do have more material available from my East Isles campaign.
> However, since you are the only reader to show any interest in the Uralog
> cult, I am loathe to send in any more material to clog up the RQ Daily.
By all means, never hesitate to send in Gloranthan background material!
As opinionated as we all are here, we'll let you know if we don't like it.
I generally don't chime in about everything I like here, because if I did
the daily would be twice as long. I assume many others do as well.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Nick Brooke wrote:
> Actually, I think the argument is interesting in a broader perspective than
> *just* worrying about what the various "schools of sorcery" believe. If
> the Runes are really at the base of everything, then their associations
> ought to permeate the fabric of the game system. It is *called* RuneQuest,
> after all, though it'd be hard to say why these days...
This is true, but there can be multiple associations as well, all equally
true. At the risk of being branded a Gloranthan Relativist, I think the
beliefs of, and especially the magical links used by a society will tend
create associations of the runes with various aspects. One culture will
use the Spirit rune in association with POW, and the more this is done the
easier that link becomes for them. The next valley over, a different
school will use the Life rune, with a similar evolution. This doesn't
mean discussion isn't useful (heck, I enjoy it even), but it does mean
I'll have my preferred linkages, and will also use others as well in
different cultures. Variety being the hazia of life, afterall.
> I read "Son of Sartar #4" (written back at the dawn of time) for the first
> time yesterday, in which Greg proposed that Hrestoli knights gave up their
> ability to use any form of magic in exchange for magic-resistant iron
> armour. So you're unwittingly on the same track! (Always nice to find
> that's happened). In #3 he wrote about the traditional enmity between
> Hrestoli knights and Zzaburi wizards...
I don't suppose there's any chance of the REACHING MOON MEGACORP (c)
reprinting these as well, is there?
> Do you think they're hot air balloons propelled by the Red Moonlight, too?
> Moving towards the moon, away from it, or tacking at an angle, depending on
> which way they turn the red and black halves of the moon-rock-coated
> sphere; speed of propulsion dependent on Lunar phase (outside the
> Glowline). That would explain why they don't turn up in a military context
> in Dragon Pass: you can imagine what Orlanthi Rune magic could do to one
> outside the protective safety of the Glowline and Molanni's Still Air...
What a perfectly wacky idea! I love it.
> Boris Mikey:
Just Boris, please. It started as a spoonerism of my name, but enough
people now just know me as Boris (esp. at cons) that it's second nature.
But whenever I hear (or read) Mikey I think if Life cereal ads.
> Was this the kind of thing you were looking for?
Yes indeed, I love this; it has that "ring of veracity" I mentioned. Do
you mind if I send it to the RQIV Playtest list? Or are you on it also?
One problem with this is that, while as powers the Power runes are opposed,
as personality traits they wouldn't be. Someone could be both "Lustful"
and "Violent" or "Deadly" or whatever, and the typical Orlanthi would be
expected to be. So I can see using the runes as a basis for Pendragon-like
passions, but not for the opposed personality traits.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Rob Mace wrote:
>You might allow for combatants to roll on a table each round for free
>brawling attacks. Something like:
>
> 0 - 50 No opportunity.
> 51 - 60 Head butt
> 61 - 70 Shield Bash if shield/Weapon grapple if not.
> 71 - 80 Knee
> 81 - 90 Kick
> 91 - 100 GM choice apporpriete to environment.
>
>Personally I think this would just slow down the combats and add complexity
>for not enough gain.
I could see using this for those climactic duels, such as between Inigo
and the Man In Black in _The_Pricess_Bride_. Or possibly allow a character
to roll on this table if they take a +2 to their SRs to look around.
And finally
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
David Cheng wrote:
But David, what hotel will it be at, and can we make reservations yet?
(*) ZZ [] (.) @ e K| o8- |> oK <>< )o 3 8 <|
A rolling stone blows up your foes down the corridor, if fused correctly.
Dwarfish proverb
Boris (so, is this better Nick ;-)
|><| +- (| >- .: K * =|= <- (O) ( ) (o) (|) X-
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: a heroquest
Message-ID:
Date: 6 Jun 93 16:32:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 983
Greg Fried here.
I have a request for all you myth-makers out there. Help me think about a
heroquest!
In my campaign in the East Isles, I have a PC who is the member of a
paleolithic fisher-tribe. For many generations, his ancestors were held
subject by a vicious tribe of shark worshipers. The fishers were eventually
liberated, but not by their own efforts -- a foreign people expelled the
sharkies (as my players call them). The thing is, now the fishers have
'forgotten' all but the dimmest memories of their founding ancestors.
The PC in question is a worshiper of (the equivalent of) Daka Fal. He is
very pious. He wants to re-member his dis-membered ancestors! My sense is,
he must go on a heroquest to do this. Does that sound right? Any
thoughts/intuitions/advice on what such a heroquest would look like?
Thanks, all!
---------------------
From: 100116.2616@CompuServe.COM (David Hall)
Subject: Sorcery
Message-ID: <930606163234_100116.2616_BHJ20-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 6 Jun 93 16:32:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 984
As the Digest is being taken over by sorcery I might as well join in,
though I have an intense hatred of the subject. So far, all the rules
systems I've seen have gone down the mechanical/rules path rather than the
society/culture path. Thus they have failed at the first hurdle - the
Gloranthan hurdle. You can't write meaningful rules for people who have no
relationship to their society.
Sorcery comes from the Invisible God via his prophets and saints, Malkion,
Hrestol, Rokar, Arkat, etc. Each sect only has access to certain magics in
the form of fixed spells, which can be manipulated to a degree. These were
taught by the prophet/saint and it's likely that learning new spells, or
even learning better ways of doing existing spells, would be heresy. The
sects are mostly very conservative. Therefore I can't see much need for
mechanistic or building-block style rules.
In return the Wizards act as religious functionaries (like a rune priest
tending his or her flock), scribes or court magicians. They are always
subordinate to the noble caste. They are servants of their Lord, and not
wandering monsters. The Wizard's caste obligations are the crucial control
which Glorantha exerts over the sorcery rules in RQ3. If you don't use the
caste system in your game then you'll find that the sorcery rules are too
powerful.
Any new sorcery rules have to have at their heart the Malkioni religion and
its caste system. They have to explain the relationship and attitude that
each caste has concerning sorcery - for each of the sects. Ideally, perhaps
there should be a different sorcery system for each sect!
Well, that's my humble tuppence worth.
---------------------
From: james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us (James Kundert)
Subject: Sorcery comments
Message-ID: <9306062109.AA28737@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Date: 6 Jun 93 21:09:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 985
Various People on Sorcery
-------------------------
Steve Gilham says:
To maintain backwards compatibility, only the results of the systems
need be the same. When looking at a RQ3 sorcerers stats, you see
skill percentages for individual spell effects, and for the skills
to manipulate those effects. As long as RQ4 produces something
close to this *on the character sheet*, backwards compatibility is
maintained. The rules behind those numbers need have little
resemblance across editions.
Eduardo Horvath says:
to which Nick Brooke replies:
<*I* do. That is, I don't mind at all if it does only work here. I like
being in Glorantha, and don't want my enjoyment to be reduced by the
blandly generic nature of the sorcery rules.>
Please, this is the sort of thing which led to the Glorantha vs
Generic screaming fits of April. I DON'T want to see that again.
It should be VERY possible to work backwards to a generic system
from something distinctly Gloranthan. If the Runes that affect
sorcery are internalized by the sorcerer, this can be generalized
to something like Ars Magica's Art scores. If the Runes are external
but subject to the caster's influence, then they can be generalized
to spell foci for other worlds. Finally, if the Runes are external
to the caster and cannot be controlled, then you have a generalized
version which looks a lot like Astrology.
The point is that, if the designers have ever BOTHERED to play or
look at other RPGs, they should have a sufficently generalized view
of magic mechanics to build a system that is BOTH Gloranthan and
(with the terminology changed) Generic.
(The reason I bring this up is that the hobby as a whole is leaning
toward _fewer_ rules these days, but the snippets I see of RQ4 have
MORE rules than RQ3. If this leviathan ever reaches print, the
RQ4 authors could well contribute to the ultimate death of the game
they love.)
I have always used the Gloranthan setting in the way it was presented
in RQ1: as an example of polytheistic/polycultural world construction.
A rules set that is irrevocably tied to this "example" is of no use to
me.
James Kundert
There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
--Albert & the Heart of Gold
---------------------
From: dustin@ocf.Berkeley.EDU (Dustin Tranberg)
Subject: Two Weapon Use
Message-ID: <199306062135.AA15822@maelstrom.berkeley.edu>
Date: 6 Jun 93 07:35:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 986
carlf@Panix.Com (Carl Fink) writes:
>F.Fontana@cs.ucl.ac.uk (Fabio Fontana) writes:
>
>>What are the penalties for using two weapons? On page 51 of the Players
>>Manual it says that off hand weapons start with a base chance of 0.5%, do
>>the actually mean "0.5 per cent chance" or half the normal base chance or
>>something like that? Are there any other penalties for using two weapons?
>
> It means that your offhand chance with a given weapon is half your
>preferred hand chance. I'm right handed - if my right hand broadsword
>attack is 90%, my left hand attack is 45%. Note that you can raise
>the offhand chance by experience or training, separately from the
>other. One of my characters has RH rapier attack 105%, LH attack
>97%.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that it means any weapon in the off-hand
starts with base 05%, and has to be worked up like any other skill.
The same page (p.51) states specifically that "use of a weapon with one
hand does not give experience in using it with the other hand."
Still, maybe Carl's system makes more sense. To analogize, if a pro
racquetball player has to switch hands, I'll bet he's still MUCH better
than a novice player.
So, Carl, you're wrong, but maybe you're right. :^)
Hmmmm,
Dustin
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: RQ4 playtest discussion
Message-ID:
Date: 7 Jun 93 06:43:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 987
Could someone please email me (f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu) to explain how the
hell I respond to the RQIV playtest discussion! I get the daily issues just
fine, but however I try to respond, the mail gets sent back to me. What is
the correct method of response?!?!?!? Thanks! -- Greg Fried
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Commentaries
Message-ID: <930605194152_100270.337_BHB41-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 5 Jun 93 19:41:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 988
__________________________________
David Scott & Robyn King-Nitschke:
Me, too. It's the way people dive in with rules systems without trying to
explain what they think Sorcerers *are* or *do* that upsets me. Maybe I'm
a Gloranthan purist ("Maybe," he says!), but divorcing the system from the
world and from society at large is alarming.
Q: "So, what do you do for a living?"
A: "Actually, I create moving walls of various elements,
occasionally throwing lumps of them at other people."
Q: "Work in a factory, do you?"
A: "No, I'm a powerful sorcerer, if you must know."
Q: "Hmmm... Does anyone else where you come from do this?"
A: "Yes, it's very popular out West."
Q: "Why?"
See, you may find Storm Bullies banal and simple-minded, but at least they
have a *reason* for going around killing things and drinking too much. I
don't yet see any comparable explanation for why a Western Sorcerer would
want to spend years of his life learning to manipulate these various
elements, etc. "Lust for power" doesn't really satisfy me as a cultural
trait (there are nice quiet Wizards who only want to help people). "Lust
for knowledge" hasn't yet been quantified and given a rules-based reality
(i.e: there are no incentives for sorcerers to learn a lot of theory under
the current rules, *except* for the increase in magical power it provides).
Now, if learning your Immortality spell required a load of "useless"
theoretical knowledge, then I'd be more favourably inclined towards it.
Anyone out there have any ideas?
Discussion point: Vivamort is a Western Sect, not a Rune Cult. If you can
drain the life energy from someone else, while living forever yourself,
what are you? Either a Vampire or else a Sorcerer (note how many
Gloranthan Vampires come from the West). If we can crack this little
puzzle, we may know what it is that other, more morally-based sorcerers are
trying to achieve... what makes them tick.
_________________________
What Makes The West Tick?
(speculative stuff)
The crux of the matter is, I think, the relationship of the Westerners to
Death. From their Brithini roots, you'd expect them to be almost obsessive
about it: certainly, the "oddity" of their belief in Solace in Glory (to
their fellow Gloranthans), and the way non-Westerners assume they're doomed
to eternal extinction, are pointers in this direction.
Common folk and common Wizards hope to attain Solace after death, by being
basically "good" (whether this means paying taxes on time, slaying the
infidel, or healing the sick would depend on your caste and outlook). The
Hrestoli and Rokari would differ as to who can decide whether or not you
were supposed to do a particular "good" action: see further, below.
Uncommon folk (and this is bound to include several Wizards and Kings) hope
to postpone death for as long as they possibly can, by legitimate/pious
means if possible. I dare say this seems reasonable and human to most of
us. After such an extended life, they too can expect to enter Solace.
We know that Piety helps you to live longer, though as yet we have no
mechanism for it (and probably won't until Personality Traits are added to
the game). However, so does Sorcery (= "bad magic"). And the impious
sorcerers either fear death as extinction (a belief shared by the Brithini,
who apparently cannot Tap anything that's transcended this mortal coil to
enter Solace in Glory and therefore refuse to believe in its existence), or
perhaps fear a post-mortem punishment for their sins (i.e: Hell -- not yet
mentioned in existing Western sources, but a likely contamination from
barbarian theologies. I'd expect the Rokari Wizards to be keen on this: a
life of drudgery may seem no better than extinction, but it's certainly
better than an eternity of torment). So they do anything they can to avoid
dying: including Immortality, Paganism, Vampirism, various depraved Vadeli
practices (which I'll write up some day), probably a specialised form of
Tapping or two... anything at all! (They are SICK!)
With that as a background, let's get on to the business of how religion
relates to everyday life in the West.
Malkion "laid down the Law": in his ancient scriptures you can find guides
and prohibitions to all kinds of actions, some of them obscure or
irrelevant to the "modern" world. Caste divisions are required because
some necessary actions are utterly inappropriate to most people. Read
Leviticus for ideas (yes, anticipating unfavourable comment: I don't want
Malkionism to be a direct parallel for the monotheisms of our world; I'm
saying this to show you simply what I *think* is going on. If you can
think of a better way of letting people know, tell us). Stick to the
letter of the Law, and you're bound to go to Solace when you die.
Transgress, even in the slightest particular, and you thereby put your
post-mortem existence at risk.
(Xemela probably did this when she broke caste boundaries to heal
plague-stricken peasants. Psychological impact on her son, anybody?)
Hrestol brought "Joy of the Heart": doing what honestly feels *right* to
you (in your heart) is not better than, but is an acceptable variation
from, the Law. So Hrestol would allow you to perform actions that incurred
"ritual impurity", if these were the source of a greater good (real-world
parallel: saving someone's life on the Sabbath). It's a more optimistic
and liberal religion: you get to make your own mind up about what's Right
and Wrong, and are freed from the bugbears of a literally-minded
priesthood. (Might need to Confess to them and clear up or atone for any
mistakes... certainly the Hrestoli Wizards will want some influence on what
you can get up to). The appeal of this to a newly-instituted Knightly
class is obvious: earlier Malkioni soldiers had to follow orders from
superior castes or risk (??? Death / Sin / Impurity ???), but the new
Hrestoli Knights can make up their own minds, and go fighting & questing as
individuals without priestly / lordly back-up.
Of course, this revision to Malkioni rigidity rather depends on the
individual's conscience. With which, as we all know, Nysalor Illumination
can play merry hell. So there's big trouble in the late Dawn Age, and
worse trouble later when it transpires that some God Learner scientists can
intellectually justify *anything*. Result: the reaction led by Rokar,
against Hrestoli Liberalism and back towards a more pristine,
scripturally-oriented Malkionism with a strong priesthood and the
strengthening of caste divisions.
(Though possibly caste divisions were almost as strong in Loskalm before
the Syndics Ban as they are now in Seshnela: discussion point? Certainly,
I'd like to meet one of the Old Hrestoli from the Castle Coast and compare
him to a New Hrestoli from Loskalm...)
Anyone more annoyed by that than they would be by another Sorcery system?
___________
Greg Fried:
Perhaps you could post a Prosopaedia-style paragraph description of any new
cults you've written, so we can decide whether or not to ask for the whole
thing. Uralog looked to be nicely thought out (if obscurely located), but
I still feel that the best way to present a new and strange cult is through
a scenario (so we can get a "feel" for how it works in the world), and that
the RQ Daily isn't really a good place to post scenarios... Can you write
Finnish, perhaps??
_____________
Brian Hebert:
> I want to clarify for Joerg that I wasn't proposing adding
> anything to PC or NPC sheets. My idea was to quantify the
> attitudes of *social groups* not individuals.
Interesting: I'd have thought the two systems went hand in hand (which is
why I probably confused you by rabbiting on about personality traits
yesterday!).
My fears re: any mechanised system for representing social complexities
really stem from my days as a Traveller player (yes, "I Was A Teenage
Traveller Player", a familiar horror story), where I learned that any fool
or machine could produce a list of numbers, but making them make sense took
ages! If you, or Mike Dawson, or anyone else out there can get around
this, I'd like to see the results. As I admitted yesterday, I was *very*
anti- the Personality Traits in Pendragon until I actually played using
them, and then found that I loved them! So you know that my judgement in
these matters isn't perfect...
___________
Ed Wallman:
> What I really want to post are my convincing explanations
> of why the Air Rune is REALLY associated with INT and why
> the Fire Rune is REALLY opposite the Beast Rune...
They're what I REALLY want to see! Unless this is a piss-taking parody, of
course... (no offence: I only say this because I honestly can't see the
connections you propose!). I'd love to see those explanations, if they can
be written up some time.
Playing in Gloranthan history is an idea that's always intrigued me: does
anyone else out there do it? Where? When? And, what happened??
====
Nick
====
FLA
FUR BIS
FLE
@ QUIS EST ISTE QUI VENIT @
---------------------
From: henkl@holland.sun.com (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Back Cover of RQ3 Delux Box
Message-ID: <1993Jun7.124431.25592@holland.sun.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1993 12:44:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 989
MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au writes:
>Is it just me, or is the second guy on horseback from the left got a rifle
>slung over his shoulder on the back cover of RQ Delux? Something like a
>wristwatch in Ben Hur?
I noticed this when it came out, and pointed this out to GS in '85 (Games Day I
think). Not that he can be bothered with such petty detail...
--
Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[] | RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM