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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 93 17:15:16 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 10 Jun 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
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---------------------
From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 09 Jun 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <9306091709.AA29921@netcom2.netcom.com>
Date: 9 Jun 93 17:09:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1018
> From: kenrolston@aol.com
> About Sorcery:
>
> I'm somewhat in David Hall's camp on sorcery. I want first to see a sorceror
> in his setting, how he dresses, what he does, and then decide what kind of
> spells he can throw. On the other hand, I think rules sets are excellent idea
> engines for considering the kinds of things a sorceror COULD be doing. Coming
> at sorcery from either end should be a helpful exercise, but I don't see much
> speculation on the Sorceror the Man, or The Sorceror's Place in Society.
> Mike Dawson has done a very nice piece for Strangers in Prax -- 25+ pages
> on a Malkioni sorceror in Prax. It should become a very useful starting point
> for discussion -- once it gets into print. Maybe polite cheevying would
> persuade Mike to preview a few bits of Arlaten the Sorceror here in the
> Daily.
>
> Me, I'm mostly interested in what sorts of stories I'll be telling about
> sorcerors. Any anecdotes out there to help me get a sense of what you folks
> think a Gloranthan sorceror looks like, talks like, and acts like?
I agree with this. But I do want to point out the basic sorcery system
has to encompess a wide range of sorcerors. Everything from the Invisible
God worshipping Malkions, the atheist Brithini, the Mostali with their
view of the World Machine, plus the lunars who know sorcery, the trolls
(via Black Arkat) who know sorcery, and the East Isles. So I think
discussing sorcery in general is also valid since you can't just base it
around any one culture.
>
> ---------------------
> From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
> Subject: The different paths of sorcery, in Gloranthan context
>
> What is sorcery to me
>
> All of the Gloranthan stuff is either based on RQ3 material published by
> Avalon Hill, Cults of Terror or pure imagination of my own, spiced with
> recent contributions to sorcery.
>
> On my own Gameworld (kind of Alternate Earth plus Alternate Glorantha) I
> reserved the pure Rune Magic for the Gods and Heroes. It still reminds me
> of God Learner style of magic, which destroys the user if applied in
> Glorantha (courtesy David Hall), also called theomancy. Still, there are
> quite a lot of scenario options to leave the compromise, especially with
> more experienced characters, i.e. Rune ranks. That's why I want the
> system!
>
> I thoroughly agree with Nick Brooke that there might be several approaches
> to sorcery. I'll try to detail my vision of some of them below.
>
> I agree with David Hall that sorcery has to be seen in its cultural
> context, but alas, the world spanning Jrusteli Empire dropped it
> everywhere outside of the Empire of Wyrms Friends - that's Peloria, Pent
> plus Maniria now.
> When the Jrusteli Empire broke down, most of its parts had already been
> assimilated by the native populace to a certain degree - that's what
> theomancy was about, if you believe the forbidden parts of the Caladra and
> Aurelion write-up in Tales 7, and take hints from the God Learners'
> occupation in Kralorela.
>
> One might dispute that the Taoist sorcery (from Land of Ninja) was at home
> in the East before the Jrusteli came. Fine with me, perhaps they stole
> their manipulation skills there?
>
> Maybe the Western wizards (Brithini and Vadeli excepted) just practiced
> kind of a scientific approach to Spirit magic, losing their overall
> casting chance to the possibility to learn each of them to a higher level
> than previously possible?
I think the western wizards learned sorcery from the Brihini at some
point. And I always have liked the view that the Brithini practice
sorcery becuase to them sorcery is part of the natural world the way the
law of gravity is in ours. They see the runes as the absolute nature of
reality, and all other cultures they think are just personifing these
runes with human like features when they worship the gods.
>
>
> Brithini sorcery can be expected to be notably different from Malkionist
> sorcery, especially considerring their use of the immortality spell and
> its effects and conditions. The most improtant thing is, though, that they
> don't care a **** for the compromise - maybe their longevity is simply the
> side effect of not acknowledging time! Only by procreating or by enabling
> change (that special spell which allows them to make their farmer class a
> screaming mob) they acknowledge time, and thereby lose their immunity to
> it.
> Well, these guys would certainly manipulate the very essence of the world,
> the Runes, to a certain extent. I'd view their sorcery very much as those
> rune alphabet systems but with certain limits.
I don't think the Brithini actually use the immortality spell. I think
they really are a race apart from the rest of mankind and are born
immortal until they become part of the rest of glorantha, which is
something their culture is set up to avoid.
>
> I think it was Nick Brooke who hinted at a possible connection to Vivamort
> Vampires here. Maybe that's just a Stygian Galvosti heresy?
> Anyway, if you want your standard evil powerful sorcerer, pick a Galvosti.
> Maybe an Ogre Galvosti. Make him/her gross. Make him/her evil. Make it a
> challenge to a group of Rune-Levels. This is the sorcery noone really
> likes, this is Griffin Island style RQ3 sorcery. Use it. Hate it. Let your
> players hate it. And enjoy it !
This would be a very fun thing to develop. I love the idea that Vivamort
and vampires came from the west. Somehow this also makes sense in light
of the fact that Delecti the Demi god was also a Wyrms Friend sorcerer.
>
> Belief into the Creator God is shared by the rock-bound Mostali, whose
> believes have something of a Stygian heresy - there's Maker, their Creator
> God, in personal union with Mostal the World Machine, his BROTHER (an
> absolutely non-Mostali word) Stone, the entity called Grower, who provided
> Maker with substance to work upon (before escaping this slavery/being
> horribly disfigured and producing life, ach), and there's Glorantha, the
> MOTHER / the primal mechanism. Their sorcery is hinted at in GoG and Elder
> Secrets, it's freaky, and it's working with the current system (RQ3+ES),
> though far from being completely described.
> (My favorite background reading for them is Huxley's "Brave New World".)
> The Mostal worshipping humans of Slon might possess some sorcery of this
> kind, but since they don't get the automatic POW increase once per year,
> to them this way of sorcery is rather unefficient - as doubtlessly wanted
> by their Mostali Overlords.
Well I think what we read of the Mostali world veiw is a humanized
version of their outlook. I doubt they use the word brother for
example.
> Theomancy, the very Magic of The Gods (all capitals
> intended).
On a totall side note for a second Theomancy isn't actually a trademark
of anything is it? I've been planning on using it for something that
might get published(it's a cool word) but if it's a trademark of
glorantha I'll drop it. Though I seem to recall first seeing someone use
the term in something other than RQ/Glorantha. Anyway enough digression.
:)
>
> By the way, Nick: RuneQuest (sight) is a God Learner word. Maybe that's
> the reason why only we esoterics use it, and the average Gloranthan
> doesn't.
Good point.
>
> Before I totally leave the Western Sphere now, towards a western peole
> turned Eastern: The Waertagi, who had been pushed into the East by the
> closing.
> ES or Gloranthan Bestiary tells us that they are the descendants of
> Malkions son Waertag, who was born by a Sea nymph (of whatever kind).
> (As with all of thes mythical origins, I assume that some companions of
> Malkion and/or quite a lot more nymphs must have been involved to give
> this new species a starting chance )
> They were closely associated to the Brithini for some reason, which looks
> strange if one regard those as atheists (which some of us on the digest,
> me included, seem to do). So if ES tells us thy practise spirit magic
> (ancestor style?), worship the merman pantheon or the Malkioni array, this
> last one should include belif in the Invisible God. Their origin is so
> old, though (Malkion still lived, although we don't know anything about
> procreation of the Malkioni in God Time, only that nobody (except Yelm and
> Grandfather Mortal) died before the lesser darkness), that they may have
> combined Brithini ways (e.g. the cast system) and the theistic background
> of their maternal heritage into something unique, and definitely
> non-Rokari, definitely non-Stygian. (On second thought, the Brithini must
> have tolerated some henotheism, in this case as well as in Arkat's).
> Don't ask me how it looks like...
Yes their ties to the Brithini are sort of odd. Maybe the idea that they
are Malkioni is is just a Malkioni idea? The idea that they were related
to the Brithini never occured to the Malkioni so it was just assumed
that they must have a tie to Malkion?
>
> I stand on firmer ground with Eastern Sorcery. Since ES told us the the
> other big secret of Glorantha - Vormain has features of Nihon - (the first
> being the coming of the Hero Wars :-), Chinese style taoistic sorcery is
> legitimate on Eastern Glorantha. It probably has it's origin somewhere on
> now drowned Vithela, and made its way to dragon-obsessed Kralorela,
> sun-watching Teshnos, and maybe the northeastern Pamaltelan reaches before
> the Embyli seized all of it.
> The Taoist concept is made notable by its acceptance of the void, an
> almost illuminated concept (but then, Rashoran has always reminded me of
> Akira Kurosawa's Rashomon). On Glorantha, the Void contains the Chaos
> outside the world...
> I think that this Eastern way of sorcery should be somewhat different from
> it's Western counterpart. The Mandala Enchantments strike me as similar to
> awakening a shamans fetch, and I'd like to exploit that. Having only their
> Mandalas, and no spirits or familiars available, they are much reduced in
> power, even using RQ3 sorcery in munchkin ways. So why not continue that
> way? Eastern Gloranthan societies are so bizarre, that they need some
> generic system to be covered.
> And then, I liked Godunya's magic as the Eastern Dragon approach, and
> adopted it for all Dragon worshippers on my own gameworld.
I don't want to even think about Eastern Sorcery. :) I think it can be
quite legimatly very different from the magics of the West.
>
> A question which is not handled by any Gloranthan supplement is: which
> cultures have sorcerous familiars?
>
> I'd deny them for Hrestoli, allow one animal or a certain object to
> Henotheists (after all, that's what the gods offer as allied spirits,
> too), allow one familiar to Rokari or Boristi wizards, multiple familiars
> to Brithini Zzabur class wizards and Galvosti, mandalas to Eastern
> sorcerers. If there still are Jrusteli sorcerers around, yes, these guys
> would have at least one familiar, maybe even their own fetch as a
> familiar. On the chaos side I'd allow ogre sorcerers on Pamaltela, maybe
> with fiends as familiars - too dreadful to be crossed, but luckily rare.
I don't really see the Brithini as having familiars. For some reason I
get the picture of them putting magics into items, (I start think very
LotR here in terms of Sauron's one ring, Morgoth's Iron Crown, etc) I
don't think all sorcerors should _have_ to have familiars.
>
> > So why does RQ4 sorcery have to be backwardly compatible with RQ3? It
>
> because of said (sad?) people...
Actualyy I wish RQIV wasn't going ot be backwards compatable on spirit
magic. I'd love to see that mechanical, flavorless piece of junk
replaced. ;)
--
Curtis Shenton curtiss@netcom.com internet
4@3091 WWIVnet
Currently working on something, I'm not sure what, for WotC
---------------------
From: dickmj@essex.ac.uk
Subject: How to make an elf hard
Message-ID: <9306091457.AA05670@serdlc14>
Date: 9 Jun 93 14:57:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1019
No, it's not elf-porn ('Bambi does the Garden'), but a way to give
back the edge elves were always supposed to have when using their bows.
As an elf bow is adapted to its user - if you don't believe me, check
the STR and DEX requirements - I rule that the stronger the user, the
stronger his bow will be and so elves add their damage bonus to the elf
bow damage. This damage bonus is based on STR only, not SIZ. Also,
when an impale is made (we use the RQII impale rules) this extra damage
is counted as weapon damage not a damage bonus. So if an elf has a
STR-based DB of 1D4 does 1D8 + 1 + 1D4 on a normal hit and
1D8 +1 + 1D4 + 8 + 1 + 4 i.e 1D8 + 1D4 + 14 on an impale. Bit harder
now aren't they?
Just promoting DEATH
-Arganth
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: New Sorcery Spell
Message-ID: <9306091901.AA01252@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 9 Jun 93 19:01:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1020
Ken Rolston comments that one should try to envision what people and
societies are like and then write rules to correspond with this vision.
I've always tried to do so when coming up with rules. I think PENDRAGON
is a _great_ example of a games system in which system-driven behavior
actually comes out to be appropriate to the culture (or genre). Brilliant
design.
One trouble in trying to do this for Glorantha is that we don't have the
same richness of both primary and secondary sources that Arthurian fans do.
History, archaelogy, myth, anthropology, fiction, film, etc., can all
contribute to PENDRAGON. We have to make up stuff for Glorantha which
is consistent with itself and the consequences of which make sense. In
an Earth-based game we don't have to make up basic phenomena such
as climate and geology, these are well-known or at least easily researched.
In any case, let me introduce a spell here which is based on descriptions
in the beginning of Cults of Terror. At least one Gloranthan sorceror
has this spell or something like it, and perhaps there are others (way
out in the Outer World) who maintain their own versions of it, small
"pockets" where the spell is in effect.
TIME
Ranged, Active
This spell binds events to fall into a pattern with effect following
cause in an orderly way, within the Range of the spell. Beings with a
POW less than the Intensity* of the spell are bound to follow this Lawful
pattern of cause and effect, even if they are Chaotic. Beings with
Power equal to or greater than the spell's Intensity may choose to
violate the imposed pattern of cause and effect if they so desire.
However, such action may cause the spell to collapse if the spell's
caster fails a concentration roll. Greater disruptions cause a greater
chance of collapse; the GM must arbitrate this.
Creatures leaving the area where the spell is in effect reenter normal
Godtime. They may reenter the spell area but often experience some
resistance, especially if they have effected changes in those regions
of Godtime counted as "past" to those under the spell's effect.
The spell will penetrate a depth of rock or soil that is only a
small fraction of the spell's Range, thus the quickest way out of
a pocket of Time is probably burrowing. A spell with a range of 5,000
kilometers might only extend 50 kilometers into the ground, for example.
In some places the boundary of the spell's effect may be irregular or
shifting, due to local conditions.
A caster with sufficient presence of mind may be able to act slowly
and carefully, give simple instructions, or even cast other relatively
minor magics while maintaining this spell. If the caster is forced into
action (say he wants to clear the seas of interlopers or is distracted by
the birth of Osentalka) the spell effects may fluctuate.
* Or make a single roll of Intensity vs. POW for all beings in the area or
those who come into the area.
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Arkat and HeroQuesting
Message-ID: <9306100359.AA06187@cs.uwa.edu.au>
Date: 10 Jun 93 04:02:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1021
Arkat did not invent HeroQuesting, many cults went on HeroQuests
during the first age before Arkat arrived. And in the GodTime there was
nothing but HeroQuesting!! (in loose sense).
Arkat did discover many things about it. I figure that what Arkat
discovered was something like this
Many cults have similar powerful rituals.
These rituals work in similar ways.
You go to the same place.
These rituals can interact (by experimentation/observation).
Once you know enough about the myth, including variations (from other
religions myths) then you can improvise, and gain different powers,
effectively changing mythology for you, and later your followers.
This was a discovery over many years, he probably did not have a good
understanding until at least his conversion to Humakti, maybe even not till
after he became a troll. But he learnt things noone else knew. I strongly
believe that the highest level of HeroQuesting, changing the story, is the
basis of Godlearning, but Arkat was to wise to meddle, and even tried to get
his followers to block acess to parts of the HeroPlane (perhaps because he
forsaw the Godlearners). Basically, I think that Arkat came close to developing
the RuneQuest Sight, but that his struggle with Gbaji had taught him many
subtle moral truths that were lost on the GodLearners, who wanted only knowledge
and power.
This has turned out to be a bit more speculative and metaphysical than
I intended, but I figure no one will mind.
Dave Cake