Bell Digest v930610p3

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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 10 Jun 1993, part 3
Precedence: junk
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The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: pmichaels@aol.com
Subject: re: Greg Fried's request
Message-ID: <9306092330.tn63638@aol.com>
Date: 10 Jun 93 03:30:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1023

About Greg Fried's heroquest:
Please help me out a little.  Are the sharkies who have been subjugating the
fisher folk for several generations Shark Hsunchen?  Were the fishers
originally Fish Hsunchen, or were they ancestor worshipping hunter/ fishers? 
Did the sharkies heroquest to remove the fisher folk from their ancestors? 
Were the fisher ancestors actually dismembered by the sharkies?  If so, then
the fishers have been mythically disconnected from their ancestral runic
connections and powers.  Or is it just that they are so removed in Time from
their ancestors that they don't remember them?  If this is so, then the
fishers have just forgotten the names and rituals of their ancestors.  I
think there is a qualit
ative difference between losing power/knowledge and being disconnected from
power/knowledge.
   If they have somehow been affected by the sharkies and are seeking to
recover their mythic origins, then a heroquest seems to me to be in order.  A
heroquest not based on preexisting mythic form is the most dangerous.  The
path is unblazed, so to speak.  Perhaps a quest based on the "search for the
father" mythic theme is most applicable.  If they are seeking to recover
specific personal ancestors who were dismembered and eaten by the sharkies
while on the Inner World, I think a mighty adventure seems more in order. 
This might include something like taking the head sharkie Shaman hostage and
spiritually (and maybe physically) gutting him in a ceremony to recover the
pieces of those who were eaten.  If what is needed is to find some of the
names of ancestors and to recover the proper summoning and worshipping
ceremonies, then perhaps the adventure is to find an ancestor worshipping
shaman who would be willing to summon your PC's ancestors until the answers
are found.  An example might the reuniting of the Sazdorf clan by the
trollish shaman Jamvanranch as described in the RQ2 Trollpak and the RQ3 The
Haunted Ruins. 

Just some thoughts.
Peace,
     Peter

---------------------

From: postmaster@minster.york.ac.uk
Subject: smtp mail failed
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Date: 10 Jun 93 02:25:08 GMT
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>From Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM!RuneQuest Wed Jun  9 17:15:16 +0200 1993 remote from inet
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 09 Jun 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: kenrolston@aol.com
Subject: RuneQuest Daily from Ken Rolston
Message-ID: <9306081412.tn49986@aol.com>
Date: 8 Jun 93 18:12:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1004

About Sorcery:

I'm somewhat in David Hall's camp on sorcery. I want first to see a sorceror
in his setting, how he dresses, what he does, and then decide what kind of
spells he can throw. On the other hand, I think rules sets are excellent idea
engines for considering the kinds of things a sorceror COULD be doing. Coming
at sorcery from either end should be a helpful exercise, but I don't see much
speculation on the Sorceror the Man, or The Sorceror's Place in Society.
   Mike Dawson has done a very nice piece for Strangers in Prax -- 25+ pages
on a Malkioni sorceror in Prax. It should become a very useful starting point


---------------------

From: carlf@Panix.Com (Carl Fink)
Subject: replies to various
Message-ID: <199306100327.AA26647@sun.Panix.Com>
Date: 9 Jun 93 19:27:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1025


 Joe Baumgartner writes re initiates regaining divine magic:

 >Introduce several stages of initiation: The lowliest (like Yelm the Youth)
 >with practically no divine magic, slowly ascending into one-use of some spell
 >other spells later, the first ones slowly regainable, and so on. RQ offers th
 >novice, trained etc. "levels", simply apply them to cult hierarchy.

  I think this would vary based on cult - you're right about Yelm,
but I suspect Storm Bulls would all be *real* initiates immediately.
The rules should present a generic version, and each cult can present
specific cases.

David Hall writes:

 >Um, Carl, *most* sorcery users in Glorantha are Malkioni. The dwarfs are
 >too few to worry about,

   Nope.

 >the Kralori Dragon pantheon worshippers have a very
 >few sorcerers (and I'd dispute even those few),

  Nope.

>The East Islanders worship all sorts including Malkion,

  There's one island in the East Isles that has Malkioni on it.
*Every* East Isles magician with very few exceptions uses sorcery,
including their priests.

 >the Pamaltelan sorcerers ARE mostly Malkioni,

  Maybe.  You should ask Oliver, who has unpublished Pamaltela data.

 >and of course some trolls do do use sorcery. But there are 12 million +
 >Malkioni in Genertela and they make up "the most".

  There may be more sorcerors in the East Isles alone than in all of the
West, because EVERYONE THERE USES SORCERY.

J>If you want to base RQ4 Sorcery on various minority variations of sorcery
 >then I'd suggest you are making a BIG mistake. The majority (or the biggest
 >minority, if I take your point - and I don't!) are Malkioni. Ignore them at
 >your peril.

  No one suggests ignoring Malkioni, just that you can't incorporate
their social structures into the rules.


Nick Brooke writes:


J>Dwarfs are sorcery-users, but live in holes in the ground, and are seldom
 >seen out of them.  Kralori live in Kralorela, and hate to travel; most of
 >them don't use sorcery, instead using the similar (but poorly defined)
 >Godunya Magic.

...no, most of them use Divine Magic and Spirit Magic, actually.  Most
people join Godunya only for patriotic reasons and never use their
Godunya Magic.  Godunya's Priests, however, are sorcerors.

 >Pamaltelans are only found Down South, for the most part;
 >the only Pamaltelans native to Genertela are the (presumably Rokari) Black
 >Knights of Pithdaros.

...and the Agimori of Prax, and a few others, although none of these
are sorcerors.

 >But the Malkioni range world-wide: need I remind you
 >of Valkaro the Good Wizard (Malkionism in the East Isles) or the Sedalpist
 >heresy of Enkloso and Vralos (Malkionism in Pamaltela)?  The other human
 >cultures you mention have an occasional sorcerer among a vast populace who
 >follow other faiths; the Malkioni are a sorcery-using culture, and are
 >*certainly* the largest such in Glorantha.

  Nope, see above about the East Isles, where essentially everyone uses
sorcery.

J>Just saying, "There are many types of sorcery, so we aren't going to
 >describe the most commonly encountered one in the rules," strikes me as a
 >downright peculiar way to carry on.

  Luckily, what I actually said is, "The sorcery rules won't be limited
to the Westerners."  Note that "...most commonly encountered..." in this
case means "...almost never seen...".  Very few published Malkioni
characters exist, compared to slightly fewer Easterners.

J>I honestly find it hard to believe that you are *seriously* using this poor
 >argument to justify repeating the soullessness of RQ3 Sorcery.  More likely
 >you either don't want to say *anything* about sorcery-using cultures in the
 >rules, or are trying to score points off David Hall for some personal
 >reason.  Not very constructive in either case, given the crying need for a
 >social context for sorcery, and the undying love and respect we all hold
 >for our Loyal Thane Keeping the Light.

  Um, could we tone down the personal stuff?  All I said was that
sorcery couldn't be designed around Malkioni practice.  I have
absolutely nothing whatsoever against David Hall, and it was someone
else who wanted to leave sorcery out of RQ4.

J>Most sorcery users you are ever going to meet in a RQ game will be Malkioni
 >Wizards from the West.  Why not try to write up some good rules for them?

  Because in games I play in, this is not the case.  I'm currently
on sabbatical from a game I'm running in the East Isles, and in Oliver's
game I play with a Kralori sorceror whose evil uncle is a major villain.
We've recently had two pitched battles with Dwarfs, and are currently in
Pamaltela.  Okay, I'm sure this is unusual, but I doubt it's unique.


  Oh, let me be clear - the example sorcerors and example sorcery
school in the rulebook will be Malkioni (Carmanian).  I just don't
think the rules should be designed to fit only Malkioni.

---------------------

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Subject: smtp mail failed
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Date: 10 Jun 93 02:15:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1026

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>From Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM!RuneQuest Wed Jun  9 17:15:47 +0200 1993 remote from inet
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 09 Jun 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 07 Jun 1993, part 3
Message-ID: 
Date: 8 Jun 93 19:50:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1008

Some short replys:

_________________________________
Peter van Heusden in X-RQ-ID: 991

> Well, someone unlurked recently and posted a very irritating post about not
> wanting to read about Sorcery, and only wanting Glorantha.

> However, I would agree, it is rather irritating getting them mixed up. I 
> don't particularly want to read about Glorantha. So: How do people feel 


---------------------

From: WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (Ed Wallman)
Subject: runic sorcery in glorantha
Message-ID: <01GZ7191J94Y0000TM@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU>
Date: 9 Jun 93 20:14:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1027

>> What I really want to post are my convincing explanations
>> of why the Air Rune is REALLY associated with INT and why
>> the Fire Rune is REALLY opposite the Beast Rune...

> They're what I REALLY want to see!  Unless this is a piss-taking parody, of 
> course... (no offence: I only say this because I honestly can't see the 

Sorry, I missed someone responding to my piss-taking parody as I sorted
through the reams of sorcery discussion.  

Does anyone else find it amusing that one post will have very convincing 
arguments about one runic organization scheme, and another post will have
equally convincing arguments about a different runic organization scheme?  

Does anyone else think that one of the best things about Glorantha is that 
it is undefinable and malleable?  How the universe is organized is based on
who you are and where you are.  The universe can even be rearranged with
enough effort.  Glorantha is not organized from the outside, but from 
within.  

Just put me in the "uneasy about rune based sorcery" camp.  

-Ed	wallman@vax2.winona.msus.edu