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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 16 Jun 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
Status: OR

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

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---------------------

From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton)
Subject: Sorcery, God Learners, and Lunars
Message-ID: <9306160236.AA02819@netcom2.netcom.com>
Date: 16 Jun 93 02:36:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1081

> From: marks@slough.mit.edu (Mark S. c/o Tom Yates)
> Subject: Misc. Comments
> 
>                  Finula and Paul's Ogre Writeup
> 
>      I found your description of ogres disgusting both morally
> and aesthetically.  It has the common fannish flaw of describing 
> a race, or cult, or secret society so superior that they should
> have long ago taken over the known universe.  If it was actually
> published, however, I'd expect that it would sell well.  Vampire
> The Masquerade has proved that there are lots of people who get
> there kicks taking on the role of "supermen" who prey on
> humanity.

Ogres are already pretty superhuman so I don't think this went too "over
the top." But I think it came out sounding much too scientific. The
Ogres come out sounding like the generic supermen, the Saurons, from
Jerry Pournelle's universe. The brain chemeistry bit was totally un
apealing and as for the adaptation thing I'd like something more
Gloranthan in feel. Maybe some Ogres worship Daka Fel, summon up their
real human ancestors and "eat" them. Thus gaining their basic physical
characteristics. 
> 
>                        -Mark Sabalauskas
> 
> ---------------------
> From: mace@lum.asd.sgi.com (Rob Mace)
> Subject: various replys
> 
> 
> ------------
> Curtis Shenton writes:
> > A book on Sorcery would be very nice. But I'm not sure how much can be
> > done in the basic RQIV rules. All I know is that I don't want to see it
> > biased towards anyone sorcery culture. I know many cultures will require
> > some modifications to the rules to make them work right. BUt you
> > shouldn't ahve to first remove the Malkioni rules and then add the
> > Eastern sorcery rules, you should just be able to add the eastern part
> > directly if you see what I mean.
> 
> I think it would be good if the rules were generic to Gloranthan sorcerers
> and then an example group like the Malkioni was given and you could see how
> the rule were expanded/modified for them.  This would be much like the
> cult stuff in RQ2.

That's what I'd basicaly like to see too. A basic generic(to Glorantha
at least) set of rules, ideas and suggestions for how it can be modified
to fit different groups. And then one or two sample sorcery using
cultures. I'd suggest the Malkioni and the Mostali.
> 
> 
> Rob Mace
>___________ 
> 
> ---------------------
> From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
> Subject: God Learners, Mythology and Us!
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares whether all the God Learner's disciples were wiped out?  
> Because, we all know that some of them are alive now and using this net!
> 
> Seriously do you realize that all of us interacting on this net is 
> effectively a HeroQuest which is affecting the mythology of Glorantha 
> by our collective decisions about the nature of things 
> (especially with regards to sorcery and Malkioni society).  
>    
> MORAL:-  If you desire a particular outcome it is imperative that 
> you fight for it here on the Hero Plane, or you will lose it forever 
> when AH or GS prints what we have decided.  
> 
> Of course you might be lucky and mythology might resent these God Learners
> interferring and reject them all.  
> 
> 		Selwi Jerandi
> 
The True History of the God Learners:
	Knowing that the were going to be wipped out the God Learners
fled en masse to a higher plane. Beyond even the level of reality where
the abstract runes exist above the gods. Here on this level they
reincarneted themselves amongst the native peoples but in doing so lost
much of their knowledge. Most of them only have a most debased
understanding of the god learner secrets and can't actually manilpulate
Glorantha, some however still have the RuneSight and know a good world
when they see it. These few are the true descendents of the god
learners. Of course a few native religions have detected the intrusion
of these alien beings into their world and try and warn the others. But
this time the god learners have adapted a more harmless image and thus
are overlooked by the majority as strange but harmless. Who knows what
lies in the future? :-)
> 
> ---------------------
> From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
> Subject: Sorcery (yawn!)
> 
> Sorcery (yawn!)
> 
> 
> RQ4 is supposed to be coming out mid-next year and there are lots of 
> other issues and problems in it that also need ironing out (the fact 
> that many playtesters have found the combat rules overly mechanistic 
> for one).  Is there time to get the rest of RQ4 right, *and* resolve 
> the problems with sorcery satisfactorily as well?  12 months (probably 
> less) is not a long time to accomplish all this, so I doubt it...
> 
> This isn't the first time I have made the suggestion, but I think that 
> the sorcery rules should be completely dropped from the RQ4 book.  
> Sorcery rules cannot be successfully presented without their social 
> context, as the RQ3 experience shows, and to do the social context 
> justice, more space than the RQ4 book could permit would be needed.  
> In fact, what is needed is a seperate "Sorcery Book", where the topic 
> can be covered comprehensively and at leisure.  The argument of whether 
> to cover the Malkioni to the exclusion of the Kralori wouldn't apply, 
> as we could cover 'em all in this book.

I hate this idea! Heck while we're at it why not drop divine and spirit
magic too since we can't really do them justice in the space provided? I
think a later supplement is a great idea. In fact I'd like to see a
Sorceror's Pack(first since we know the least about them), and then a
Shaman's Pack and a Priest's Pack. But I think RQIV has to have core
rules. What's a GM who has sorcery in their game supposed to do when
RQIV comes out? Pretend it isn't there? Try to tweak RQIII sorcery onto
RQIV(I shudder to think of what this owuld be like) Now saying, "This is
just a simplified, generic look at sorcery which will be expanded in the
Sorcery supplement." is fine by me. But not having the rules is a real
cop out.
> 
> 
> Joerg B. writes:
> >>...But we got to have some sorcery in the basic RQ4 rules, else 
> >>AH would copy TSR politics. We all like that compan, do we?
> 
> I don't get what you're on about here?
> 

"Buy RQIV! You'll only need one book to play! Well maybe 2 but the
second one won't be out for awhile. But buy the first part now anyway!"
> 
> _________________________
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
> Subject: Player Characters I Have Known
> _________________________
> 
> The campaign was a long struggle for the Raynors to regain their 
> position as hereditary governors of Joranit, and the city's 
> rivalry with neighbouring Elz Ast (culminating in the impending 
> visit of the Crimson Bat on its way to the Redland: the PCs were 
> the Joranit delegation who had to convince the Bat cult to stop-over 
> in Elz Ast instead of their city; of course, there was an Elz Ast 
> delegation trying to do the reverse!)
> 
> 
> MOB
> 
Ooooh, I love it! Politics can be so much fun for PCs. ;)

-- 
Curtis Shenton curtiss@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet             
"At the GM's option, strategic nuclear weapons may be considered
'magical'"-From the CyberCthulhu rules in Interface

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Feedback
Message-ID: <930616072952_100270.337_BHB72-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 93 07:29:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1082

_____________
Mark S. said:

> Although it may seem unusual, I've agree with most of what
> you've said lately about sorcery and the West.  Just a few
> quibbles for old time's sake.  I've seen the Rokari/Hrestoli
> split as a continuation of the first age Seshnelan conflict
> between the Linealists and Idealists, as opposed to the result
> of an early third age "heresy/reformation".  By the by, is there
> any primary source reason to believe that an actual "Rokar"
> existed.  After all, the names of movements (or cities, etc.) are
> not always based on those of Heroes, even in Glorantha.

Now there's a turn-up for the books!  Thanks for those quibbles, though: I 
was starting to wonder whether you were going soft (or becoming sensible) 
in your old age! 


YES!  The old Linealist/Idealist split is an almost exact parallel for the 
Rokari/Hrestoli schism.  Thanks for publicising this idea.  But I don't see 
any reason to chuck the existing explanation (found in Genertela Book p.78, 
middle col, 4th para.) -- your version helps by making the roots of the 
"Rokari Sect" deeper and more profound.  Nice thinking, there!

You're against a Third Age "heresy/reformation"?  Genertela Book says, "The 
terrible suffering of the end of the Second Age prompted a frenzy of 
*reformation* and searching for the original roots of Malkionism".  Well, 
OK, they left out the asterisks.  But you know what I mean...


NO!  There is no "primary" reason to believe in Rokar.  But:

	Malkioni --> Malkion
	Hrestoli --> Hrestol
	  Arkati --> Arkat
	  Talori --> Talor
	  Rokari --> ???
	             (why not "Rokar"?)

I'm not bothered by Galvosti or Boristi: too small to be worth the trouble. 
 Boristi are apparently geographical; Galvosti, nobody knows.  Heresies and 
sects in our world usually have a single founder, and the name "Rokar" is 
useful in this context.


Now, to boggle you, I'll agree with two sets of your comments: on the 
difference between societies with access to sorcery-like effects (Kralori 
etc.) and sorcerous societies (Malkioni), and on Oliver's list of 
"non-Malkioni and very important" sorcery-using cultures encountered in 
Prax etc.  My return quibble will be that there *are* occasional Kralori 
traders in Pavis, but they are in no way significant enough to make it 
worth including Kralori sorcery / mysticism in a RQ4 centred on Dragon Pass 
+ Prax + Holy Country + Lunar Empire.  We don't even know whether they're 
sorcerers or not.  (Given the percentages, odds are none of them is!).

You know, Mark, one of the great things about these arguments is that 
Gloranthan debate always helps us learn more about the world.  Let's keep 
going!

_________________
to Graeme Lindsell:

> ... the three main cultures of western Genertela are Orlanthi,
> Lunar and Malkionist. Once these three cultures and religions
> are described, everywhere west of Prax is covered.

Couldn't agree with you more!  See further, below...

_______
to MOB:

> I think that the sorcery rules should be completely dropped from
> the RQ4 book.  Sorcery rules cannot be successfully presented
> without their social context, as the RQ3 experience shows, and
> to do the social context justice, more space than the RQ4 book
> could permit would be needed.

Couldn't agree with you more, either!

I posted a suggestion to Oliver Jovanovic a while back asking if, given 
that RQ4 is meant to focus on Dragon Pass + Prax + Holy Country + Lunar 
Empire (and apparently *NOT* the West, which the Gang of "X" seem to have 
taken against), it made any sense to have Sorcery in the rules.  I 
suggested replacing it with an expanded and improved description of Lunar 
Magic -- covering the stuff they teach in the various sororities of the 
Lunar Colleges, plus bits on Illumination, Cycles, Glowlines, etc.  And 
examples of that old Battlefield Magic that RQ players have been wanting 
since the year dot.  That would undeniably be more interesting and useful 
than a soulless rehash of Sorcery, and the Lunars can be found in strength 
in all the areas beneath the RQ4 umbrella.

Oliver disagreed, saying that "The rules are meant to give you an idea of 
how to run an unaligned sorcerer".  He thought nobody would be interested 
in a bunch of "small esoteric schools" until we had more detail about the 
Lunar Empire (scenario packs, etc.), and that the Carmanian sorcerers were 
more important in Dragon Pass & surrounds than Lunar Magicians.

Meanwhile, Carl seemed to think this was the most wrong-headed thing anyone 
could say, too rude even to allude to in print...

____________
Oliver said:

> With respect to Malkioni - I exclude the Brithini and Vadeli, 
> since they are atheists and at best seem to pay lip service to
> Malkion and the Invisible God, and also the Stygians and 
> Carmanians...

I agree.  So do I.  Waertagi, too, I suppose.

*BUT* these cultures all have deep and true connections to Malkionism, and 
will use similar Sorcery rules.  Surely you can't hope to deny that.  So 
I'm not sure why you bring this up.

____________
Joerg asked:

> Did you make this longevity piece up as well as the Pharaoh bit, 
> or do you base it on written evidence?

Ho ho ho!  Am I using sources that are too obscure for you, here ?  
Rokarism is the religion of Seshnela, so have a look in the Genertela Book 
/ Seshnela / Religion section (p.76):

"The Rokari Malkioni believe that they have returned to the pre-Hrestol 
roots of their religion.  They imitate Brithini concepts in a limited way; 
some wizards and lords have gained extended lives through their piety, but 
most mortals live and die within their born caste."

Not my idea at all!

====
Nick
====

--> Read some historical novels by John James!
--> "Votan", "Not For All The Gold In Ireland",
--> "Men Went To Catraeth" and "Bridge of Sand"
--> are all Jolly Good Stuff, well worth a look!