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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 17:15:48 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 18 Jun 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
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---------------------
From: 100116.2616@CompuServe.COM (David Hall)
Subject: Sorcery, pt.3
Message-ID: <930617212840_100116.2616_BHJ12-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Jun 93 21:28:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1102
Howdy. Back into the fray..
>From Mark S:
>Maybe he was confused by the Glorantha book, which states
>that "Aside form the dwarves and a few minor atheistic cultures,
>the Malkioni are the only practicing sorcerer culture in
>Glorantha." Given that sorcery IS used in other societies, this
>suggests that there is a real difference between merely having
>some sorcery around, and being a sorcerous society.
Yes! As I tried to point out last time, the Malkioni (and dwarves) are the
only cultures to use the RQ3 sorcery rules alone. The sorcery rules were
originally designed with them in mind. Cultures such as the Kralori, the
Eastern isles and the Carmanians have their own unique forms of magic - in
Gloranthan terms. In RQ terms these can only be simulated by mixing two or
more of the three magic systems to create a unique blend. For these
cultures sorcery is used with either spirit or divine magic. This makes for
complicated explanations and illustrations - if you want to do it right.
As has been said before there are far more than three magic systems on
Glorantha, the God Learners were the only people who believed in (and tried
to impose) only three. However, in RQ terms we can't make thing so
complicated!
This is why I fervently believe that the logical example should be to use a
"typical" Malkioni sect, i.e. the White Wyzards of Seshnela. They are far
simpler to explain, as you are dealing with just one magic system at a
time.
Nick Brooke writes:
>Oliver disagreed, saying that "The rules are meant to give you an idea of
>how to run an unaligned sorcerer". He thought nobody would be interested
>in a bunch of "small esoteric schools" until we had more detail about the
>Lunar Empire (scenario packs, etc.), and that the Carmanian sorcerers were
>more important in Dragon Pass & surrounds than Lunar Magicians.
I completely disagree. In fact I am sitting here at my computer foaming at
the mouth. Are we really that close now to the Magic Users of D&D? Is RQ
really turning into D&D? I speak from a knowledge of D&D ten years ago and
so I may be doing AD&D a disservice - it may be that RQ is regressing. Most
of us enjoy Glorantha because of the mythological and cultural detail -
take that away and you make all of the same mistakes as RQ3.
I am speechless - but my fingers still function.
I disagree with MOB and Nick about dropping sorcery from RQ4.The RQ4 book
should be as complete as possible. It's just not practicable to omit such
an important section (especially as it has appeared in RQ3).
I also disagree with Ken Rolston concerning the impression he gives when he
says he prefers to "work on the settings where we have the most detail (ie
Sartar, Prax and the Lunar Empire)." In general terms I agree with it - but
not to the exclusion of all else, and especially not at the cost of
sorcery.
Sartar, Prax and the Lunar Empire are enough of a ghetto as it is. They are
also Greg Stafford's ghetto - which is probably the reason why we all enjoy
playing there. However, because Greg has staked his claim to so much of the
area, we should be encouraged to push out into the undiscovered areas - not
discouraged. It is there that virtually nothing has been written, and where
any decent writer can make their mark without automatically being
"Gregged".
By all means concentrate Gloranthan releases on Sartar, Prax and the Lunar
Empire, but not exclusively.
Joerg Baumgartner:
>Well, I cannot see how RQ3 sorcery fits into Malkioni society without
>major fixes. The system as it stands does advocate unaligned sorcerers
>rather than Western parochial tied sorcerers.
Of course it does! RQ3 was tailored for a non-Gloranthan audience. As such
the decision was made to make sorcery the civilised magic system. The magic
system of the atheist or unaligned Greek philosophers, and the like. But
that is RQ Earth and not Glorantha. The removal of the religious link is at
the heart of the problems that many people have with the rules - or more
precisely its unrestricted use by PC's and NPC's in games.
>Ok. I read the Fonrit stuff in Heroes 1.6, and I carefully looked for
>Seshnegi evidence. There wasn't any, but there were a lot of mentions of
>Jrusteli occupation. I don't know wether the Seshnegi followed the
>Jrusteli everywhere, but I found no evidence for that anywhere.
>So we get a situation where the only sorcerers who visited Fonrit were of
>God Learner fame. The God Learners were wiped out by the united anti God
>Learner forces, but still there remain some sorcerers. Who are they?
Every mention of the God Learners also cites their destruction. Sorcery
could have come from the west of Pamaltela, which has influenced this
region - i.e. Sedalpists and Rokari. Or from the Vadeli (and Dormal) who
broke the Closing.
It's not exactly obvious that sorcery is worshipped in Fonrit - apart from
the City of Sorcerers! There's evidence of Pamalt, sea spirits, Yelm, Zorak
Zoran, & Ompalam. But most of all there are the local city gods. These seem
by far the most important focuses of worship and I see no evidence that
they are all God Learner constructs or some obscure form of atheist
sorcery!
The bit I have on the religion of Fonrit says that in Afadjann the most
important god is Darleester of the Noose who gives a spell of compulsion to
the jann. Elsewhere, "Earth Spirits, fishing spirits, ancestor worship, and
city spirits abound." Powerful religions are variously state-supported by
particular cities, e.g. Orlanth, Invisible God (in Ebbeshal), Two Brothers.
I don't see referances to any unaligned sorcerers.
Sir Ethilrist:
I have it on good authority that Ethilrist is an Arkati from Ralios, not a
Brithini.
The people of God Forgot are the remnants of some Seshnegi God Learners.
The God Learners were the only *true* atheist sorcerers. So God Forgot is
most likely atheist community.
Oliver Jovanovic:
>The Glorantha book, under Carmania, mentions the use of unaligned sorcery
in Carmania.
Looking this up I saw that the Genertela Book mentions the Invisible God,
thus contradicting that cult write-up I have, but not your more recent
info. Personally I'd like some more clarification from the Creator God!
However, in this light the reference to "unaligned sorcery" would seem to
refer to worship of the Invisible God. Or worship of the Invisible God
directly and not aligned to another deity. Not atheism.
Whether that is true or not, it suggests to me that simply using a
combination of the basic sorcery rules and standard cults is possibly too
simple an approach. The relationship between the cults, and the Invisible
God, and the Red Goddess, all under the Carmanian Heresy, needs better
explanation and probably more involved mechanics (at the very least
descriptions - cult write-ups - of the other deities in the Carmanian
Heresy). It is not really the best, or most easily understood, example to
use.
>I think there is a role in Glorantha for the solitary independent
researcher or hermetic
>mage...
Only in a society which is religiously tolerant (very rare in Glorantha),
and only when the sorcerer keeps himself to himself and doesn't go around
showing off or killing people. So, limited scope for a PC or nasty NPC!
>As for the West, most of the Malkioni sects seem to consider each other
heretics, and
>yet they manage to coexist - I doubt an unaligned sorcerer would be
considered much >worse than another heretic (or a Brithini) there.
Yes, but this is down to whether they follow the Law of Malkion or not.
Guys who wear white robes and follow the Law of Malkion (Hrestoli, Rokari,
Borists, Galvosti, Sedalpists, etc.) are called Wizards. You can be sure
you are safe from Tapping with them (unless you're an Ogre, of course). So
if you are of a different persuasion you are safe to just insult these
guys, or enter into long and agitated theological discussions.
Guys who use showy sorcery but don't wear white robes, or don't have the
right sigils and runes, are probably Sorcerers (this includes the Brithini
& Vadeli). Now, Sorcerers don't follow the Law of Malkion and they will
probably Tap you or do nasty things to your children. Best thing to do then
is get your local Knights and Wizards to deal with them.
I recommend burning.
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Hell and Back
Message-ID: <930617222857_100270.337_BHB69-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Jun 93 22:28:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1103
__________
Carl said:
> ... the proximity of Brithini settlements is not relevant, because
> Ethilrist didn't come from anywhere near Muse Roost. He *exited*
> Hell there, but he entered somewhere else - Jrustela for all I know.
Um, no . The Red Emperor gave him Black Horse County because it was a
horrible piece of land he didn't want to rule himself but needed a steady
man to hold. He's done it before, on another irritating frontier...
Source: History of the Lunar Empire, First Wane, WF#11, p.19: "The Char-Un
legends state that their Kahn, Panishi, was cheated in a game by the Red
Emperor, and robbed of his inheritance. When Panishi complained, and
proved his complaint, the Emperor compensated him with 'more land than you
came from, more richness than your spirits could count.' The Hero accepted,
then learned that the Emperor had given him the realm of Erigia (the
Emperor later used this method to rid himself of Ethilrist). Erigia was,
at that time, a dense conifer forest..."
So I'm not *sure* the only available evidence shows that Ethilrist exited
Hell there. He just ended up there after being swindled by Moonson, up
whose nose he had (typically) got. Fits with our picture of Black Horse
County as predominantly a desolate wasteland, from which you can hear the
baying of a gigantic Hound... (admittedly this theory was inspired by its
being coloured grey on the Dragon Pass map!).
Of course, if you know more, please Illuminate us.
BTW, Ethilrist *does* look just like Alan Rickman as the Sherriff of
Nottingham, doesn't he? Muse Roost must be covered with frescoes like the
Hell scenes from a Renaissance Last Judgement, painted by the men who've
been there and seen it happening. And you can always hear "Carmina Burana"
playing in the background when the Black Horse Troop ride out amid the
night and fog...
__________________________
Wadsley Chipmunk (?) said:
> ... a 10 intensity, 8 duration ( roughly 1 day I think ) spell
> is at the limit
Unless you use matrices with built-in manipulation, like any gross INT 18
Sorcerer would under RQ3 (cf. Griffin Island for a good reason to avoid
backward compatibility).
If RQ4 has a long-lasting Sorcery Duration table, it will be rounded off to
produce sensible lengths of time ("one week", "one season", "one year"),
rather than meaningless multiples of 10 minutes times two to the Nth power
("327680 minutes = 32 weeks+"), won't it? Of course it will! The Gang of
"X" aren't fools, you know!?
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: JOVANOVIC@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU
Subject: Those pesky Brithini
Message-ID: <930617202450.6933@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Date: 17 Jun 93 16:24:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1104
Brithini and Hsunchen -
Actually Paul, as I recall, that particular Brithini theory
came from Sandy Peterson. I didn't realize you had written
something on it as well. It was actually a bit more
elaborate, if I recall correctly, also touching upon the
tribe of Law and the tribe of Chaos, but otherwise
basically as I related it. According to either theory,
the Kralori would basically be considered Dragon Hsunchen,
which might explain why they are so powerful . Of course,
there may well be more than one Brithini theory on this - after
all, all you need for a Brithini theory is a single Brithini.
They seem to have plenty of time to sit around and theorize...
I can see it now ... "This theory, which is mine alone, and not
that of any others, a unique theory, standing on its own..."
- Lord Palin, a Talar of Arolint.
Sir Ethelrist -
The Ethelrist story in the RQ Companion mentions his West Jungle
origins more than once. Of course, that could just be a translation
error, but perhaps not.
Oliver
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: death of deities
Message-ID:
Date: 18 Jun 93 03:03:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1105
Greg Fried here:
Please help me with a problem in comparative mythology! Just what is the
mythic significance of the death of a god in Glorantha?! Yelm was 'killed',
went straight to hell, but obviously was not annihlated by death. Indeed,
Yelm worshipers carry on quite merrily. What has the fate of their 'dead' god
done to their cultic practice and to their divine magic? Not much, as far as
I can see. Not that this SHOULD be some terrible problem; I just don't get
the significance of death for gods in Glorantha, unless it's just some way of
saying the god is supplanted by another one as the ruler of some region; but
gods don't have to kill to defeat each other in Gloranthan myth, so again,
Death, where is thy sting?
I ask because I am working on some cults where divine death is involved, and I
don't have good sense of what death does to the god and to subsequent cultic
practice! Have I missed something painfully obvious? Looking forward to your
collective wisdom!
---------------------
From: dickmj@essex.ac.uk
Subject: bits and bobs
Message-ID: <9306181114.AA23924@serdlc13>
Date: 18 Jun 93 11:14:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1106
Those of you who are eagerly awaiting the next bit of the ,ass combat
rules may have noticed a distinct lack of said material ove the last
week or so. This has been due to me moving house, but normal service
should resume shortly.
Until then, please send thoughts on what we've done so far.
Would you like a life without suprises?
-Arganth