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Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 17:15:49 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 19 Jun 1993, part 3
Precedence: junk
Status: O

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Chaos Invasions
Message-ID: <930619074846_100270.337_BHB12-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 19 Jun 93 07:48:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1117

________________
Chaos Invasions:

David Gadbois sez:
> Chaos entered Glorantha during the Greater Darkness by
> lifting up the world in the north.

Jeff Okamoto sez:
> Actually, I believe the major invasion of Chaos entered
> in through what is now Magasta's Pool.

Both right.  I'd say there were two main invasions of Chaos in the Godtime: 
the first and the biggest.  David and Jeff are describing different events.

The Unholy Trio did their groovy thing in the far North (KoS p.78) during 
the Storm Age / Lesser Darkness, and created the Devil there.  Note that 
Ragnaglar's land is shown in Fronela on a Trollpak mythological map (UL 
p.7); does this tie to the Happy Valley of Broos story in the Companion?
(RQC p.9 entry [1470], "A story or parable told in 1447 by Nikibrik the
fool" -- possibly a distant ancestor of mine?)             ^^^^^^^^

The Devil (with associated armies) headed for the Spike and destroyed it.  
A chaos void opened at the centre of the world, and the Gods of Chaos 
emerged from it.  That was the start of the Age of Terror / Greater 
Darkness.

I *think* the implication of this (CoT p.14) is that there were more gods 
of chaos after the destruction of the Spike than had ever assailed it: that 
others, new terrors, emerged from the void.  This might also explain while 
some forms of "Primal Chaos" are associated with Broos (effect of too many 
chaos features -- as Great Sister says, "Chaos really broos you up!"), 
while others are just generally squidgy and not at all goatlike.  Two 
different generations, and the first of them was brought into the world 
through Thed the Goat-Mother.

___________
Tom Zunder:

> M4$L#!!0    ( .-JFQK!0]9 & $  (L#   ,    4TM90E5,3%,N5%A4Y5#+z

What is this rubbish, Tom?  Like you say, "it is so difficult and tedious 
to read".  Do Cyberpunk players have to understand stuff like this? 

>  I would appreciate it if people didn't quote endlessly.

Do you mean, quote each others' letters to the Daily?  Or do you mean I 
should give page references to the RQ Companion etc. and hope you all have 
it and can follow the thread of my tortuous arguments?  I agree with the 
former, and am dead set against the latter.

If we're airing prejudices, I'm against computer garbage in the Daily, and  
have been ever since that 44k PostScript file screwed up my system.  Tell 
people they can get it from you if they want it, OK?

====
Nick
====




---------------------

From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Entropy needs no maintenance)
Subject: gripes & grubles & stuff about magic
Message-ID: <01GZJSI99T1U0064Q9@UG.EDS.COM>
Date: 18 Jun 93 21:24:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1118

JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK writes
>that shamen have to exist in civilized societies.  
>Take Duke Raus for example he worships his ancestors.

Yes, clearly not all these chaps are the ones clad in uncured skins dancing 
around fires.  In fact concentration on the squalid (which seems to fascinate 
many of the Gloranthan prime movers) has obscured, what game mechanics has 
already muddied.

Clearly in any culture featuring ancestor worship, the role of head of family 
should *automatically* qualify the person as shaman/priest of ancestors; with 
a congregation of family members past & present, and the tools (spells) 
necessary for the task.  Questions of ceremony skill, divine magic "in the 
bank" and tests of holiness simply cannot be germane - those exist just to 
give PCs hurdles to overcome just like the experience levels of D&D.  The role 
of head of household will of course involve much time in managing the 
household & other "priestly" duties, thus making this unattractive to the 
players who want easy power for their PCs. 

and asks
>why shouldn't a magus who is equivalent
>to a tough Rune Lord or Priest have spells running continuously

Possibly because the magus can do that while the rune-level-wannabe is still 
an initiate - when they all have ~60% main skills, for example.

Mind you, I think that more of us than just myself still map our RQ2 view of 
the world onto the discussion (spells rightly stackable no more than 4-high in 
most cases, extension coming in 1, 2 or 3 point varieties - and even then the 
week duration on battle magic for Extension III was ripe for abuse) which 
makes our expectations of the power level of rune-priests less than they 
actually are in RQ3.


David Hall writes
>Most of us enjoy Glorantha because of the mythological and cultural detail - 
>take that away and you make all of the same mistakes as RQ3. 

Unfortunately I fear that bad mistakes are being committed at very high 
levels.  The recent assertion that the runes we all know and love - and which 
have had profound impacts in e.g. architectural styles [Earth people using 
trilthon style archways; sub-folk arranging cities in circular plan around an 
open plaza] - being dismissed with negative connotations as a God Learner 
invention comes first to mind!

Glorantha appealed to me as a place of wonder, with plenty of mythic detail - 
and very little cultural material.  In recent years, the people with greatest 
influence seem to have been concentrating on the squalid details of cultures, 
leaving the original main influence to wither; and now *that* has come under 
revisionary attack.

One of the reasons (apart from mail trouble & pressure of work) for my sparse 
postings in recent weeks is the feeling that the discussion of new game 
mechanics is distracting us from what has recently been described as the vital 
heroquesting done in this forum; and to some extent, the feeling that in many 
respects it is too late to rectify what I see as fundamental damage done to 
the world.  Glorantha can be gamed using Pendragon, Fantasy Hero, or even 
AD&D2, with various degrees of hacking.  RQ4 isn't really that important 
except as a vehicle for the world.

When Ken Rolston says he prefers to "work on the settings where we have the 
most detail (ie Sartar, Prax and the Lunar Empire)."  I'd say we don't really 
have enough detail on the latter, and only KoS has shed significant light on 
the former.  There has been too much concentration on Steve Perrin's old Pavis 
campaign.  I say "let's break out of the Prax ghetto".

Greg Fried asks
>Just what is the mythic significance of the death of a god in Glorantha?!

Death, for Yelm, is the explanation of sun-set (as his recovery is that of 
sun-rise).  One of the tenets of Gloranthan myth is that Chaos is to the gods 
what Death is to mortals - sometimes not even the names of gods destroyed by 
Chaos have survived.

---------------------

From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder)
Subject: Death
Message-ID: 
Date: 19 Jun 93 13:50:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1119


***

@ Death and Gods

My three clacks on the Death of Gods..

Death in Glorantha isn't the atheistic death of Earth, it is the death of
a Christian or a Buddhist. One passes from one place or state to another.
A Humakti who dies goes to his Lord, to await the Battle of the Gods. ((Is
there to be a Gloranthan Ragnarok, Humakti might well believe in an END
for the cosmos)).

But, Death moves one to another plane, and different rules apply. One can
return, one can be reborn, one can be ressurrected.

Gods, who exist in GodTime, in which all events exist concurrently without
cause and effect, may be Dead and Alive, Born and Unborn. Thus Yelm lost
power when he was killed, Yelmalio lost power when he was wounded, but they
still exist and at (most) points in GodTime they have their powers.

Thus the only important event that can happen to a God is Annihilation,
total removal from all of GodTime, total removal from all and every point
of existence. This is what the forces of Chaos can do, rip deities and
things fully from all existence and spread the entropy of Primal Chaos.

Many gods have been Annihilated, BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE!

Remember, if your character dies, his soul goes somewhere else. Only if
his soul is utterly annihilated will he fully depart the world. Because
he existed in Time, and the past can't be touched, unlike GodTime, he can
never be fully Annihilated, tho. Thus Gods are less touched by Death, being
spiritually so powerful, but they can be totally destroyed, "even unto the
memories of those who worshipped Him".

Read the questionable notes on Minarian Memory Removal in King of Sartar
other doubtful ideas on Annihilation of Ideas.

****

@ Bye!

I'm rewsigning the Daily for a bit, I can't afford the online charges. Have
fun, I'll be back one day. Anyone got a very fast modem going cheep? I'll
still get the Digest when Henk does em..

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly do the women bid farewell to the fyrd as they march to their doom! 
                            
                                Orlanth Rex!
------------------------------------------------------------------------




---------------------

From: mfp0@aberystwyth.ac.uk
Subject: Elven messaging
Message-ID: <9306191419.AA05620@decb>
Date: 19 Jun 93 16:19:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1120

	Hiya all, the follwing is an account of the Elven messaging system knownas banding that I mentioned a while ago.  Hope it makes sense :)

HISTORY OF BANDING
++++++++++++++++++

	After the Kinslayer Wars, when the Forests were still great and covered much of the land, the number of Aldryami was sorely depleted.  This meant that 
significant information was hard to pass on by word of mouth.  What was once    common knowledge that could be given to strangers passing through by frequent
chance encounters was now hard to come by.  TO this end, and to prevent small 
Elven communities from becoming cut off from the rest of the Aldryami world, a 
simple messaging system was devised.  It enabled passing Aldryami to be informed of any dangers or important happenings in the area without depending on an
encounter with another elf.  Particularly important were those messages of 
disease, pleas for help, or war - preventing innocent parties from walking into
a war zone, a common occurence after the Kinslayer Wars as rival tribes fought 
for dominance.  Devised by the leaders of the Green and Brown Elves, it aided 
the unity between the two races and speeded peace, particularly within the 
Green elves as they took on their traditional roles as protectors during the 
Winter months.  Later years saw a few more additions to this system and the 
evolution of a strict etiquette regarding its use.  The system was kept a close
secret by the Green and Brown Elves from all other races, and even the other 
elvish types know little about it although of course there will be some who
have learnt some, if not all of the meanings.  Except where permission is 
granted by the council, any Aldryami found divulging the methods and meanings toa being of another race is stripped of assets, cast out and shunned (see later
desription).  The harshness of the penalty was neccessary to protect against
the danger of misinformation should enemies gain use of the banding.  
	It was later agreed that the knowledge should be passed on to members 
of associated cults, should it be asked for, whether of Elvish derivation or 
not (Rune levels only) and, more recently, freely taught to initiate level or
higher members of Cernein (See Steve Hunt's description in earlier digest).
	The largest concession was the formation of a trading message for use 
specifically with traders.  Initially it was taught to induvidual human 
communities with whom a degree of friendliness had developed, and was kept a 
secret by the humans.  It is now taught to Rune levels of the Issaries and 
Etyries cult where knowledge of it is distributed to members who wish to trade 
with elves.
	As mentioned previously, there is a strict etiquette regarding the use 
of such messages that has grown to almost sacred proportions.  No Aldryami 
would ever misuse the knowledge.  To set an ambush using the bandings or to 
remove the messages so as to cause harm is unthinkable.  Indeed, for this to 
occur, by the hands of any race, Elvish or not, can be likened to a heart and 
initials being carved onto the trunk of the Great Tree.

	It is of course impossible to keep all the meanings secret for such a
long time and the meanings may be worked out or overheard or taught to those
who have close dealings with the elves.  The number of non-Aldryami who have
knowledge of the bandings and their meanings though are relatively few and most
of those who do have knowledge respect the need for secrecy.  It should be 
stressed that in all but the most unusual circumstances (perhaps where an 
Aldryami has been brought up in a non-aldryamic culture), all Green and Brown
elves are taught the banding as soon as they are able to talk.

SHUNNED ELVES
+++++++++++++
	These elves are disowned by the community but not by Aldryami as the 
crime is against the community rather than the Goddess.  A spirit of retributionmay be sent against the induvidual but it will not take action unless the elf 
attempts to divulge the information. It shouldn't be too hard for the elf to 
work his or herself into another Aldryamic community as long as it is 
sufficiently far away from the original one for word not to have spread and as
long as the induvidual keeps their mouth shut. :)

THE BANDING SYSTEM
++++++++++++++++++
	The Banding system consists of thin strips of coloured material tied 
around branches in different combinations.  Whether the strips are read from topto bottom or left to right matters little, rather it is the order of the strips
compared to each other. i.e. Black next to purple next to red would be the same
as red next to purple next to black.

THE MEANINGS 
++++++++++++
	Red - Purple - Red  =  Danger

	Yellow - Yellow - Yellow  = Disease
	
	Green - Green - Green  = Welcome, enter freely.  This is used to mark
boundaries of forest that are under the special care of a particular elf but 
which are open to all elves as of normal forest, much like waystations along
a trade route.  Herbs may bu used and foodstuffs utilized, but courtesy dictatesthat anything used is replaced in some way as soon as possible, preferably 
before leaving (depending on the disposition of the tender of that area). 
Permission must be asked for non-elves or non-associated cult members to stay inthe area.  Actual tampering with the area described by the markers is 
discouraged.

	Green - Blue - Green  =  Boundary markers.  as above but signifies that
privacy would be appreciated - Aldryami are not unwelcome but would be expected
to pass through unless on business with the tender of that area.

	Blue - Blue - Blue  =  Keep out unless permission has been granted. 
This may be used if a private council is being held in a grove or perhaps to 
mark an area of newly seeded ground etc...

	Black - Black - Black - White  =  Mourning

	White - Green - Green - Green - White  =  Wedding

	Green - Green - White  =  General celebrations.

	Blue - White - Green  =  Private celebrations.

	White - Blue - Green  =  Trading markers.  Used to mark trails that 
lead to trading areas where non-aldryami and aldrymi meet.  Markers are placed
on the left hand of the trail when the trading area is faced to signify the 
direction.  This is the only banding knowledge that is freely given to 
non-aldryami - except of course to Trolls and chaos creatures.  There may be
some reluctance towards revealing it to Dwarves and followers of Mostal
depending on the nature of the trade.

	Black - Green - Black - (Optional)  =  green surrounded on both sides
by black is a cry for help and is well known as such throughout all elvish
nations.  It ensures the safety of anyone offering aid from those asking for it and will never be used as anything else, doing so is considered one of the worst crimes possible.  An extra colour may be added to define the nature of the 
problem.  i.e. yellow for disease, black for injury, purple for attack etc... or combinations there-of.  It is expected that other elves, if not directly 
answering the plea, will bring it ot hte attention of others at the earliest
possible oppurtunity.

	Black - Purple - Red  =  War.  All non-Aldryami to be kept out - 
forceably if neccessary.  Does not dilimit the warzone but signifies that forces are being gathered for war.



	I hope this is of use to people.  It should be noted that these messagesare set and that new messages invented by PC's have to be vetoed by the Great
Council.  There is no reason why GM's shouldn't add their own or change them 
though and so I have included a list of meanings for each of the colours.

COLOUR MEANINGS
+++++++++++++++

	Red  -  Beware, Anger

	Yellow  -  Disease, Illness, Corruption

	Green  -  Growth, Welcoming, Wellbeing, Happiness

	Blue  -  Privacy, Security

	Purple  -  Danger, Hostility

	Black  -  Death, Change, Disaster

	White  -  Celebration, Ceremony, Change, Joining.


	I don't think there's that many holes in this system.  I'm leaving in 
a weeks time so I'll be gone pretty soon unless I can get a job with a telnet
connection so if anyone else has any elven stuff that they'd like to send me
I'd be very grateful :)

	Mark.
	"Gerroff my legs! I'm NOT a vegetable!"