(Message rqd:42) Return-Path:Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (sunnl) by homeland.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11658; Mon, 21 Jun 93 17:15:44 +0200 Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA25354; Mon, 21 Jun 93 17:15:27 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00425; Mon, 21 Jun 93 17:15:18 +0200 Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 17:15:18 +0200 Message-Id: <9306211515.AA00425@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 21 Jun 1993, part 1 Precedence: junk Status: O The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld) --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: Dead Gods Message-ID: Date: 19 Jun 93 17:46:21 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1121 Greg Fried here. Thanks all for the feedback on the death of gods! ------- Nick: You were right to flame me a little with Yelm. I suppose saying that his worshipers "carry on quite merrily" despite his death was a poor choice of words. What i was trying to get at (putting aside Yelm himself for the moment) is that a god can die and still his cult can exist. Why? Because as you and Steve G. and Tom Z. have nicely illuminated, Godtime does not equal Nowtime! What puzzled me was what happens, what ruptures, with the god's mythic death? How does it affect cultic practice and magic? The answer is, the death of the god does NOT cut worshipers off from him, but it may subtely or not so subtely affect what magic the god can grant and what kind of worldly status the cult enjoys. A god's death is a defeat in some area; he or she stands to lose dominion over a certain realm. Steve: Thanks for that reminder/insight -- that Chaos is to the gods what death is to (RL) mortals. ------- Here's a related question: Does Glorantha have room for more Sun gods other than Yelm? In my admittedly pseudo-Gloranthan campaign (which I pretend is in the East Isles), the Sun never rose in the Golden Age. He just appeared as a star in the center of the sky and grew and grew and grew! This expansion of the solar imperium really offended and frightened other gods. Some even accused him of searing at the fabric of the cosmos, allowing the first of Chaos to seep in. When he was killed, the Sun fell from the center of the Sky to the center of the World -- down Magasta's Pool (creating it?), to be imprisoned in the black pits of Hell. Here's where I get really heretical: among the gods who go on the quest to redeem the Sun in the Moon! Together, the Sun and Moon conceive a child, Yalem. Yalem incarnates his father's fiery orb, but also his mother's cyclical nature. It is Yalem, not the Sun, ho rises in the Dawning, and Yalem (thanks to the Moon's cyclical rhythm) who sets at dusk. With the Dawning of Yalem comes the birsth of Time. I don't think this is bad for the East Isles, a supposedly solar region, and "Land of the Rising Sun" (Nippon!)! OK. Now burn me at the stake. (Oops: read "IS the Moon" 7 lines up. Any thoughts on her color for such a myth?) -------- Sam: My solution for the short Gloranthan year has been to add two more weeks to each season: Fate Week and Luck Week. In RQ2 at least, these were bona fide Power runes too, along with all the other matched pairs that make up the weeks. I never understood why they were left out. So are we both missing something? on centaur plumbing. My guess is, they have two stomachs (kinda like cows!). In their human torso, they can digest meats and other human only food. In the horse stomach, they can digest grasses (centaurs must have massive jaws!). PS: the add of two weeks per season means: five ten week seasons plus sacred time = a 52 week year. Pretty darn Earth-like! ------- On way too much stacked Rune magic: Did I ever mention my solution to this? When someone wants to stack beyond one point, take the square of the sought for magic. Eg, Shield 2 = 4; Shield 4 = 16. Have the character 'overcome' this number in a POW resistance roll. If s/he succeeds, s/he gets the new stacked spell level. If s/he fails, she loses that point of POW! This will seriously disincline people from seeking out stackings above 4! Extension 27 (like someone mentioned way back) would be unthinkable. If you find this too severe, you might allow a permanent up front sacrifice of POW as a way to improve chances of success. (Eg, I want Shield 5. Sacrificing 1 POW up front, I make it a Shield 4 for the purposes of overcoming it -- a 16 is easier than a 25. This up front sacrifice is over and above all other points of POW needed to gain the spell.) Just an idea! GF out. --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Up and Down Message-ID: <930619184926_100270.337_BHB63-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 19 Jun 93 18:49:27 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1122 ________________ Rob Mace writes: (re: Chaos invasions in the North lifting the Sky Dome) > This seems a bit strange. Up is associated with Sky/Fire so it > should be hotter and down is associated with Darkness/Cold so it > should get colder. Yeah. What they mean is, the Sky Dome tilted up so that its heat was further away from the world in the north, while bits of its 'burningness' spilled onto the world in the south. And it's been that way ever since. Mythically, your associations are quite correct. Explaining this is tricky. I hope I've managed it here. ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway) Subject: Areas of Interest Message-ID: <9306191930.AA15199@hp2.zycor.lgc.com> Date: 19 Jun 93 19:30:35 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1123 Re: the debate over sorcery in RQ4: >> From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton) >> Subject: Sorcery, God Learners, and Lunars >> Date: 16 Jun 93 02:36:08 GMT >> >> > From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au >> > Subject: Sorcery (yawn!) >> > >> > >> > This isn't the first time I have made the suggestion, but I think that >> > the sorcery rules should be completely dropped from the RQ4 book. >> > Sorcery rules cannot be successfully presented without their social >> > context, as the RQ3 experience shows, and to do the social context >> >> >> I hate this idea! Heck while we're at it why not drop divine and spirit >> magic too since we can't really do them justice in the space provided? I No offense, Curtis, but that seems like a pretty juvenile argument. The current Avalon Hill area of interest seems to be Prax, Dragon Pass and hopefully north from there (to the horribly underdeveloped Lunars). There may be a few sorcerors in that region, but there are hundreds of thousands of spirit magic users, and thousands of divine magic users in this region. I agree with that area of interest. I have never played in the West, nor the East. I have never been in a Gloranthan game involving a sorceror. I do not care about compatibility with exceedingly forgettable AH supplements which contain sorcerors. >> think a later supplement is a great idea. In fact I'd like to see a >> Sorceror's Pack(first since we know the least about them), and then a >> Shaman's Pack and a Priest's Pack. But I think RQIV has to have core I aggree that there should be a whole pile of stuff about the West. The key point is LATER. If RQ4 is another chop job, then there won't be a "later". Spirit Magic and Divine Magic are almost universal. Lunar magic should be expanded and expounded upon, because of its centrality, before the laundry list of the many more esoteric sorcery magic shools are covered. Personally I think that each major sorcery school should have it's own rules. Bollocks to the unified field theory. If it doesn't fit everywhere, don't put it in the core rules! Lost attribution to this: ------------------------- >> I posted a suggestion to Oliver Jovanovic a while back asking if, given >> that RQ4 is meant to focus on Dragon Pass + Prax + Holy Country + Lunar >> Empire (and apparently *NOT* the West, which the Gang of "X" seem to have >> taken against), it made any sense to have Sorcery in the rules. I >> suggested replacing it with an expanded and improved description of Lunar >> Magic -- covering the stuff they teach in the various sororities of the >> Lunar Colleges, plus bits on Illumination, Cycles, Glowlines, etc. And >> examples of that old Battlefield Magic that RQ players have been wanting >> since the year dot. That would undeniably be more interesting and useful >> than a soulless rehash of Sorcery, and the Lunars can be found in strength >> in all the areas beneath the RQ4 umbrella. I agree with this viewpoint wholeheartedly. A survey question: What do you want, and in what order, from AH? My list: 1. Lunar Pack 2. Prax Pack ( the nomad tribes, not just the Zola Fel area ) 3. Holy Country Pack 4. Sartar/Dragon Pass Pack 5. Pent Pack I did not include RQ4 rules, as I'm referring more to areas of development. As for Cults, release them with the appropriate background/scenario pack (a la River of Cradles). Later, release a mondo cult anthology. Later = when the game has become popular and stable enough. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Sorcery, Sorcery, Sorcery (yawn) Message-ID: <01GZMABWSBJ696VUYE@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 21 Jun 93 10:17:31 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1124 SORCERY (yawn) Carl Fink writes: >It is once more suggested that we leave sorcery out of the >basic rules. This violates the First Commandment we set up when >we started out: Thou Shalt Not Ruin Existing Characters. That is, it >would become impossible to keep running existing sorcerors. I don't see how this necessarily follows. Of the minority of RQ campaigns that are actually using sorcery, very few people seem to be happy with the official RQ3 rules and are instead using their own variant versions. If RQ4 comes out without the new sorcery rules, what's there to stop them keeping on playing with whatever sorcery rules they're using now? And I bet even after "Sorcery-Pak" comes out, no matter what is done to sorcery, some games will keep on using their variants. So, rather than making it "impossible to keep running existing sorcerers", it will in fact be very easy: just use whatever rules (whether RQ3 or a variant) you're using now until "Sorcery-Pak" comes out. And the Gang of "X" still hasn't addressed the point of my original posting: that is, there are a lot of others bugs to iron out of RQ4 before it's due for the presses next year, without opening the Pandora's Box that is sorcery. Meanwhile Nick Brooke posted: >...given that RQ4 is meant to focus on Dragon Pass + Prax >+ Holy Country + Lunar Empire ... I suggested replacing it [sorcery] >with an expanded and improved description of Lunar Magic -- covering >the stuff they teach in the various sororities of the Lunar Colleges, >plus bits on Illumination, Cycles, Glowlines, etc. And examples >of that old Battlefield Magic that RQ players have been wanting >since the year dot. That would undeniably be more interesting and >useful than a soulless rehash of Sorcery, and the Lunars can be >found in strength in all the areas beneath the RQ4 umbrella. I second this motion!!! Some people (Joerg B., Curtis S.) are not keen on the idea of the RQ4 rules coming out in several volumes: Joerg gave us the TSR example of multiple rulebooks. Personally, I can't see any problem with this. You *will* be able to RQ with the RQ4 book, even if its missing sorcery, unlike say only having ADnD Player Handbook and wanting to play a game of DnD. To close, I find Ken Rolston's recent comments on the sorcery debate very intriguing: >Of course, I hardly wish to discourage energetic theorizing about >global Glorantahn sorcerous metaphysics. It just isn't a priority for publishing in the near future -- not because it wouldn't be cool >and interesting, but because i doubt a consensus could be reached >on it without knowing a LOT more about other Gloranthan cultures >than I do. "Global Gloranthan sorcerous metaphysics" - by this, does Ken mean the sort of "simplified, generic look at sorcery" that the sorcery chapter in the RQ4 rulesbook would have to be? And, as a postscript, David Hall writes: >I have serious problems with unaligned sorcerers! Mostly I want >to burn them, and I think I'm not alone in Glorantha. Right on Dave! You bring the kindling, I'll bring the matches... --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Ogres Message-ID: <01GZMAEMIZ1896VUYE@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 21 Jun 93 10:18:43 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1125 > From: marks@slough.mit.edu (Mark S. c/o Tom Yates) > Subject: Misc. Comments > Finula and Paul's Ogre Writeup > >....flaw of describing a race, or cult, or secret society so superior >that they should have long ago taken over the known universe. I'm inclined to agree (and also with the comments that it needs to be less scientific and "more Gloranthan"). I would like to see more negative aspects of ogres built in to such a write-up, to counterbalance the superhuman aspects and explain why they haven't taken over the world. Rather than ideal master races, cults, secret societies, military formations, or whatever, I find it far more interesting to read about such models that are *imperfect* for some reason. Take the Nochet Lhankor Mhy Library, as described in TALES #4 (if any of you can remember back that far). It could have written up as a perfect filing system, but would it have been as much fun to read? I doubt it. In this case it's far more interesting to have built-in imperfections: precious volumes hidden away in factional caches, books lost but whose existence somewhere on the shelves can be proved by divination, etc. than to read about a Gloranthan "Dewey decimal" system. One final comment about the ogres: they reminded me very much indeed of the Ringworld Vampires. MOB --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Going Batty Message-ID: <01GZMAFHL6MA96VUYE@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 21 Jun 93 10:20:04 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1126 Re: MOB & the Crimson Bat (from prharmaty@aol.com) > I'd love to hear the aguments used to convince the Crimson >Bat Cultist that they ought to stop over at some other town. "Oh, our >folks are weak of body and soul ever since the disentery outbreak. We're >hardly worth devouring. You should choose the fat people of a better >place to suck the life force from." The background to the situation was as follows. As you may recall, there were two interlinked Lunar noble families in the campaign - the parvenu Raynors and the decadent Whydeds. The Raynors had just launched a minor "dart war" to take over Joranit city when news of the Bat came. The Raynors had to keep order in the city (and pay all the back taxes) before the Emperor would recognize their actions, and it was implied to the PCs that if the Bat came, the populace would probably revolt again, putting collection of the Emperor's taxes in serious doubt. With the red glow on the horizon, the PCs rode out as an official Joranit delegation to welcome the glorious crimson steed of the goddess - and convince the Bat cult to pass by neighbouring rival city Elz Ast instead (meanwhile, Elz Ast were also sending a delegation, to convince the Bat of the opposite - to stopover in Joranit). The PC group somehow got split up (can't remember how), but two of the more depraved PCs (the eminently burnable unaligned sorcerer and an Irrippi Ontor) got captured by agents of the Bat cult out scouring the countryside for Bat fodder. So as not to become Bat Food themselves, they said they wanted to join the cult and led them to the Elz Ast delegation, who were bushwhacked before they could say who they were and then, er, "presented" to the Bat! The PCs then had to go through with it, and were enrolled as initiates of the Crimson Bat! Meanwhile, the other PCs tried to convince Rob-in, the stuttering High Priest of the Bat to go to Elz Ast, but without success. Not even the two new initiates could convince him. Finally, a plot device saved the day, when decrepit old Sir Arapiles Whyded (Jaxarte's dad) rode out to meet the Bat, and Rob-in, his old school chum who he hadn't seen in years. They were last seen seated on the Bat's back and heading east towards Elz Ast, chatting about the good old days.... (In order to leave the cult, you must have served 20 years or be permanently crippled. Both PCs wanted to leave the Bat cult soon after joining, and managed to convince the High Priest after Sir Arapiles's intervention. However, they still had to be "permanently crippled". This was accomplished by the Bat licking them into its mouth, chewing for a few seconds, and spitting them out. It was a long and slow recovery, even with Healing spells. The sorcerer then had the "little bats" after him for a long while because he nicked a crystal belonging the cult). --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Daka Fal Shamans Message-ID: <01GZMBR35HK296VUYE@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 21 Jun 93 11:02:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1127 >In Jaxarte in TOTRM 5, Raus has a priest in his entourage, who I presume >is a Daka Fal shaman. No? Well, yes. I don't know why, but I've always assumed that Daryli Godspeaker, Raus's shaman from BORDERLANDS was a Daka Fal priest (they were priests in RQ2). Long ago when I first played BORDERLANDS, my GM said he was, it seemed logical, and its stuck. Now, looking in BORDERLANDS, I note that Daryli's cult is deliberately made vague. Maybe Raus, as head of the family, is the shaman instead? (Though personally, I prefer the idea of a family priest who handles that side: Raus is too busy being an important nobleman). Civilized societies do have their shamans too, they just don't go round with chicken bones stuck through their noses or wearing dirty skins...