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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 17:15:16 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 07 Jul 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.
Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 06 Jul 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <9307061552.AA01006@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 93 15:52:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1227
Paul R. responding to
Bob Luckin:
>You mention the Net/Web. I assume this is Arachne Solara's net, and the GL's
That is entirely correct. It is another case of them exploiting a great
natural phenomenon for a (relatively) trivial benefit. There is a small chance
that she will notice the intruders on her Web and go after them (she is a
spider y'know) but this is proportional to your power level. Most of us,
even sorcerers, etc, are just too small for her to notice.
>The idea of a Jrusteli splinter group that even the rest of the Jrusteli think
>are too dangerous definitely appeals ! But surely in that case the Gods would
>have wanted to wipe them out as well as the ordinary Jrusteli. How were they
>'iced', and how did this prevent the Gods getting them ?
There was a subtle war between them and the other Jrusteli. Eventually
they set off for other worlds through the Void in a syllogismobile (a pocket
universe whose laws can be adjusted to conform with various worlds, rather
like the vehicle of the Mathenauts) which was of a subtly rigged design,
trapping them in an off-Glorantha pocket of no-time. The Gods don't actually
understand Void navigation as well as some of the God Learners, so they
didn't bother to go after them. (We know that Storm Bull can go at least
a little ways into the Void, and that Dragons can move between worlds. Krarsht
is supposed to be good at this also.) Perhaps the Gods thought that as long as
these guys were safely in stasis it was best not to disturb them...
>I reckon Storm Bulls probably head-butt the nearest wall or post, and then
>interpret the dents they made...
They may see 'visions' by this methods as well. Stars and little circling
flocks of birds are common visions...
>Donandar cultists put a message in a bottle and throw it into the sea, then
Do you mean Dormal the Mariner? Donander is god of music and dance. I
might guess that they use the 'priestess in a holy trance' method but instead
of becoming the 'voice of the god' she induces the trance through an ecstatic
dance and winds up dancing out the answer.
Other methods are good too. I like the Mee Voralans (for trolls); Black
Elves just groupthink, I think.
More later,
Paul
---------------------
From: gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois)
Subject: Re: Shopping carts
Message-ID: <9307061700.AA15062@paducah.cs.utexas.edu>
Date: 6 Jul 93 07:00:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1228
From: a902430@tiuk.ti.com (Bob Luckin)
Date: 5 Jul 93 18:06:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1220
Thanks for the Origins write up. I know I shouldn't ask, but the
trickster in me is just too curious : a shopping cart accident ?!
Greg was out grocery shopping with his son and was fooling around by
hopping up on the bar behind the rear wheels and riding the cart. The
cart slipped out from under him and he landed on his palms (ouch!).
He said it was a sort of rite of passage for his 10-year-old, who had
to take stock of the situation and figure out what to do while Greg
was standing around in shock.
--David Gadbois
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: RuneDeck
Message-ID:
Date: 6 Jul 93 18:24:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1229
Greg Fried here.
Mike Dawson:
Sounds like you have a very good thing going there. I for one would like to
read more about it. If you don't want to post here, send it to me directly,
if you should wish. Your description of the game sounds intriguing. I still
want Gloranthan poker, though! That may be too much to ask.
----------
Salt Mines
There are other salts besides Sodium Chloride. If these occur in natural
deposits, is it possible for Sodium Chloride to occur in deposits other than
those caused by retreating oceans? Could a volcanic region (assuming some
fantasy weirdness) produce such deposits? I ask becuase in my campaign, I
also have an incipient salt mining venture! On the island where the campaign
is located, there is a place called the High Salt Flat. This area was formed
in the crater of a huge, dead volcano, on whose rim a newer volcanon has
formed. I had decided that this area is rich in various deposits, such as
sulphur, cobalt and numerous salts. I am no chemist or geologist. Is this
totally unrealistic? In any case, my PCs are attempting to put together a
mining company to exploit this inhospitable region! I'd love feedback from
the savvy person who outlined the geology of salt deposits! (PS: are copper
deposits and a few rubies out of the question as well for such a region? And
don't you love a game that gets people asking questions like this?!)
----------
a scenario:
A propos of what I have said recently here about trying to get AH to publish
more "pay and play" scenarios, I am trying to put together something from my
campaign to send to AH. Would anyone be interested in reading what I have so
far and critiquing it? Perhaps it is just not suitable for AH, but maybe it
is. In any case, if you volunteer, you'll get some stuff possibily of use to
you! A version of this scenario is posted in Adam's compendium under the
title East Isles. If you indicate here on the RQD or email to me directly, I
can also send you the materials directly (without, I hope, the formatting
glitches that turned up in Adam's compendium or here on the RQD whenever I
send in stuff from my files).
Can someone out there who HAS submitted material to AH tell us what AH seems
to be looking for in submissions? Do they only solicit when they have
something planned, and then only from known authors? Do they consider
manuscripts that arrive out of the blue? Do you have some sense of what
degree of completeness AH wants to see in a proposal (ie, an outline with
some supporting material, or a fully detailed manuscript, complete with maps
and statistics and encounter tables, etc)?
GF out.
---------------------
From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 06
Message-ID: <199307061829.AA09767@panix.com>
Date: 6 Jul 93 10:29:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1230
To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com
Subject: The Secret of the God Learners
marce@holonet.net (rev. marc l. eyraud) writes:
R>i recall reading somewhere that there were 7 people in the world
>(presumably, this world) that knew the godlearner secret....
R>greg is of course one, and the person that wrote whatever it was i read
>was another....
R>so, if no one is lying, there is a secret and some "real" people know what
>it is...
R>anyone going to step forward?
Well, I think that the "7" might have expanded a bit. I was Initiated
by Sandy Petersen a couple of years ago, along with Oliver Jovanovic and
some other players in our local game. (We plied him with pizza.)
Just one more reason why I should never travel to Glorantha....
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: What kings are all about
Message-ID:
Date: 6 Jul 93 19:41:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1231
(This was triggered by a remark from Paul Reilly who compared Clinton's
speech at some Vietnam-memorial to Daka Fal worship)
You're absolutely right, Paul - Ancestor Worship is one half of what
Orlanthi kingship is about!
The most detailed information we have on this matter is King of Sartar.
Take a look at the possible candidates for Princehood in Sartar: Only
descendants of Sartar qualify, so each of the aspirats to the throne
have to prove this connection - by lighting the pyre of Sartar.
Ok, admittedly Temertain failed to produce much of a flame even though
he was certainly of royal blood, but the other candidates (Kallyr
Starbrow, Argrath) prove their claim to the throne by causing a
reaction of their distant ancestor.
Now why has the Prince of Sartar to be of royal blood?
This has a religious and thereby magic reason. A priest can interact
with his god only through the lines of worship and intervention, as was
determined by the compromise. A descendant can, within the compromise,
summon his ancestors spirit to manifest in the mundane world -
something forbidden to do with deities except in serious urgencies,
like other deities breaking the compromise.
Now if this specific ancestor has achieved apotheosis, the descendant
can effectively summon a deity without breaking the compromise, and
that's what makes the bloodline of kings so valuable.
(Summoning the deity doesn't mean that the deity is called in the
ritual described in the rules, this is rather a special use for Axis
Mundi.)
This way the king (or effectively any member of the royal bloodline
initiated into a position where the ancestors take interest) is a
priest with special advantages.
One might regard the crowning ceremonies as initiation into
quasi-shamanhood (or acolytehood) with regard to ancestor worship in
cultures more sophisticated than primitive or nomadic.
To use another popular example: When Duke Raus was crowned as Duke of
Rone, this was a worldly affair (gaining the political and economical
say in family affairs) as well as a religious initiation (or rather
promotion in the hierarchy of the ancesto-worshipping community). Thus
Raus has effectively become chief priest of all who worship the Rone
ancestors.
In the Vikings Box (which I use as Orlanthi pack as long as no better
version has been published) the position of the medium between the
ancestors and the living is occupied by the Volva of the clan, an old
woman who is familiar with the family's ancestral spirits as well as
with the household spirits. In Glorantha terms this is a mixture of Ty
Kora Tek and Daka Fal acolytehood. There are no prerequisits in terms
of POW-sacrifice or number of Rune Spells known, since these are just
game mechanics to prevent characters from occupying these positions.
(In the interest of game world realism I'd advocate to ignore them for
PC, too - this makes excellent roleplaying stuff if a PC suddenly is
pushed into this role, feeling inadequately prepared.)
The other aspect of kingship in Orlanthi culture is actually a remnant
of the preceding Earth cults' sacrificial kingship. This is still
practised in the Earth dominated regions of Esrolia, Exile Tarsh (at
Wintertop) and Grazeland (the latter apparantely including Imther and
Holay, if we can trust Greg Staffords scholarly conclusion that Inkarne
was Feathered Horse Queen and queen of the latter countries).
This kind of kingship favors the champion, the man best fitting for a
task at hand, as the contests for the hand of the Feathered Horse Queen
depicted in the Composite History of Dragon Pass show. The old celtic
concept of the marriage with the land.
Also this kind of king has primarily a priestly function - by marrying
the goddess of the land (or her representative priestess), he gains
special access to divine favors.
Modern (16th century) Orlanthi society tends to ask for both qualifiers
in a kingdom's king (tribal kinghip is somewhat different). Sartar was
a selfmade king who created the kingdom as political as well as
spiritual entity, his successors had the claim of kinship to the spirit
of the kingdom - Sartar's spirit. Much of his claim of kingshp was due
to his marriage with the Feathered Horse Queen, the represantant (sp?)
of the land. The greatest king among his successors was Tarkalor, who
made the marriage, too.
The other major kingdom of Dragon Pass, Tarsh, was founded by a man who
underwent the marriage with the land as well. Arim the Pauper wooed
Sorana Tor, the Earth Priestess of Wintertop, and his twin Children
became legendary heroes in the falling hill battle. In the third
generation the traditional election of the king was disrupted by the
dead king's son who claimed kingship by right of ancestry as well as
power and prowess. This held true until the dynasty died out.
The following Illaro dynasty was legalized by the same procedure -
marriage with the priestess of the land. And kept the power by the same
concept - royal ancestry. Until the Lunars upset the rules and Hon-Eel
removed the last royal heir, to provide a son of hers and the last
king.
Even this Lunar puppet king followed the customs of his Orlanthi
precedessors, and thus kept some legitimacy, although his heirs' major
opponent, who managed to keep them in exile for almost 20 years, was
king by right of the sacred marriage. The Lunar kings of Tarsh were
relatives of the Red Emperor, thus of the Red Goddess, and thus priests
in their own rights, too.
Synopsis: There is no mundane kingship in Orlanthi culture, every king
automatically becomes a special priest for his people. Either through
marriage with the land, or through descent from a divine or semi-divine
founder, best both of these.
Any protests?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Lies, all lies!
Message-ID: <930706222540_100270.337_BHB46-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 6 Jul 93 22:25:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1232
Sorry to be so curt, Curtis / sorry to be so meek, Mike;
> BUT <
I am NOT a God Learner, whatever these lurkers and rumour-mongers may say.
I did briefly extemporise to Greg at Gaelcon about what their Secret might
have been, but he didn't confirm or deny any of my guesses. Which sounded
rather facile to me at the time, but that's what too much Guinness does to
you. (Aye, we had drunk deep from the black brew of Inspiration that
night). So put away the tar and feathers, guys...
====
Nick
====
("But... that's what he'd say if he DID know the secret, Curtis!")
Ah! Well, if THAT'S the way you're thinking, I do hear tell that Sandy
Petersen has told *something* he calls "The Secret of the God Learners" to
Oliver Jovanovic. Seems rather an easy way of learning it to me -- but I
believe fervently in "no great insight without great struggle", and all
that jazz. Still, if you believe that story, take your posses and your
torches, your garlic and your stakes, and knock on the door of Castle
Jovanovic.
====
Nick
====
(BTW, I can get a good lawyer if these libellous accusations are repeated!)
---------------------
From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: ORIGINS & Stafford
Message-ID: <9307062355.AA08454@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 6 Jul 93 23:55:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1233
Overall the con was a magnificent bust, and possibly "one of the worst"
according to number of people. They're going to hold it in Baltimore
for the NEXT FIVE YEARS, while it tries to rebuild what it's lost in the
last couple.
Total turnout could not have been above 4000 ( normally ~8000 ).
Downside: No RQ events, fewer offerings than usual, unhappy GAMA meetings...
Upside: David & I got to have Greg to ourselves for a couple of hours
Friday night, and you could also _usually_ talk to him at the
booth without too much trouble.
>> From: gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois)
>>
>> Greg had a rough draft of about 100 pages of his new book. Further
>> work on the book will be delayed due to an unfortunate shopping cart
>> accident. He banged up his wrists pretty well and he is having
For the curious:
Greg was riding on the back of his shopping cart, apparently showing his
10-year old how to act like an 8-year old, and instead found out that $80
of groceries isn't as heavy a counterbalance as it used to be.
>> trouble typing. The book is not the Lunar book I had been expecting
>> -- it is about the pre-Lunar Dara Happan mythology and civilization.
>> ...
>> feel I got was that it was written from a Lunar perspective and is an
>> attempt to reconcile the Solar mythos with the Lunar way.
The portion which I got to read, was written more from the Solar point
of view. What would you expect with a title like "The Glorious Reascent
of Yelm"? Stafford wanted to write the Dara Happan mythos and history
first, so the founding of the Lunar Empire would have a historical/social
context. The Lunar book was referred to as "the other half".
In any event, none of this was written from the more familiar God Learner
or Barbarian perspective. You though you didn'y like some off the Harshax-
era renaming of gods and peoples, huh?
Did you say Elmal? Yelmalio? No no no.
It was Antirius who fought at the Hill of Gold.
Stafford: "Those guys who had problems with Elmal
will really piss their pants over this."
Yep.
>> o Yelm's descent into Hell was not caused by some bandit diety like
>> Orlanth, but rather by the need for Yelm to meet his Shadow. The
>> Shadow thing seems to be some sort of psychological notion -- the
>> aspects of the personality that are repressed.
>>
>> o Illumination is a *Solar* concept, and the first Illuminate was
>> Yelm himself.
I also got the idea that Illumination _was_ meeting your shadow, and also
that it meant seeing The Many, and The One, at the same time. This is an
expansion and adjustment of the older concept.
The Red Emperor has two shadows, first Sheng Seleris, "now" Argrath.
Presumably Arkat was Gbaji's shadow, and vice versa.
>> Jack Dott (the president of Avalon Hill and a singularly unexcitable
RQ was relegated to the back of the booth ( later Dott said "I don't know
why it doesn't sell..." hmm, maybe because you treat it like a step-child? )
until the arrival of the ToTRM stuff David brought, including a nice 3 ft.
tall poster version of the RQCon flyers. The poster got some fairly prime
real estate on the side of the booth, and ( probably as a result ) the RQ
materials were _spread_out_ and moved more toward the front, instead of the
_single_pile_ toward the back.
More co-marketing info:
A Ral Partha representative said that they will not be adding to the RQ
line, though they had a decent-enough display area. Dott said that AH & Ral
Partha were "supposed to work closer together" on this.
>> situation. He take was that he had to protect his copyrights or lose
>> them. Please contact him if you want to do something with Chaosium
>> copyrighted stuff.
He is legally obliged to defend copyrights, else he loses them. Let's just
say he seemed pretty interested in keeping them.
Stafford also mentioned the following (FYI):
* He seemed intrigued by _____'s ( I forgot to whom to attribute this ) idea
of the Seven Mothers following and deliberately failing in a Lightbringer's
Quest. He had thought about, but apparently not decided on whether they were
reinacting the quest, beforehand.
* He likes the idea of Personality Traits, and other mechanisms to give
the character a social context. There are mechanisms for nearly everything
else, but not for putting the character into a real life. He spoke rather
disdainfully of 'calling "The "Adventurers"' when trouble brewed up, rather
than going to the family elders/clan council/etc. and working through
problems within some social context.
* There's too much healing & resurrection in RQ, and not enough pain ( as
opposed to damage ). The pain part presumably comes from personal experience,
of late.
* There are "a lot of rules, guys". I'd say he'd be a RQ-lite customer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 |
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---------------------
From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (alternative address- steveg%arc.ug.eds.com@uunet.uu.net)
Subject: Lodril & Krarsht
Message-ID: <01H08POMI3NM004OPY@UG.EDS.COM>
Date: 6 Jul 93 17:33:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1234
Nick Brooke's Freudian analysis of the myth connecting these two in
the digest 9.2 is another of those things that seems obvious in hind-
sight. And I suppose it's in keeping with other aspects of Glorantha
that the phallic Spear is initially pure, but the kteic Mother Mouth
is initially contaminated with Chaos, and passes its contamination
on.