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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 12 Jul 1993, part 1
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 10 Jul 1993, part 1
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The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
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From: flammang@heart.med.uth.tmc.edu (James Flammang)
Subject: Who the heck?
Message-ID: <9307091517.AA04929@heart.med.uth.tmc.edu>
Date: 9 Jul 93 15:17:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1248
Hate to ask more dumb questions, but who the heck is Antirius? Some
Carmanian Sun God? What's the source?
These Sun Gods are getting too damn confusing. I'm going to stick
to worshipping Storm Bull. Keeps things simple.
Jim Flammang
---------------------
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 10 Jul 1993, part 2
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The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
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Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 08 Jul 1993, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 9 Jul 93 22:40:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1252
Some feedback to my sacerdotal kings to be answered...
____________________________
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 1236
>>>
I agree, though, that a lot of the cults have a strong element of ancestor
worship. Yelm is an even more obvious example, his priesthood is
restricted by bloodline to the old Yelm noble families, which are
supposedly descended from Yelm! Obviously ancestor worship gone way
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Sun gods and myths
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Jul 93 17:49:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1255
STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Entropy needs no maintenance) in X-RQ-ID: 1244
>johnjmedway reported (re Greg's next book)
>>Did you say Elmal? Yelmalio? No no no.
>>It was Antirius who fought at the Hill of Gold.
>>Stafford: "Those guys who had problems with Elmal
>> will really piss their pants over this."
>>Yep.
>There are several ways to take the tale of Antirius. Same god, different
>name? or perhaps an instance of the Roman custom of making
>analogy-identifications of other folks gods; talking of "The German Hercules"
>meaning Thor, and so forth (so Elmal is "The Orlanthi Antirius" - and perhaps
>Yelmalio is "The Aldryami Antirius")? How objective can one be in saying that
>one figure in myth is the same as (or differs from) another, anyway?
One possible explanation is that already in God Time there were several
dities following the same paths, thus aquiring or losing the same
attributes. So Yelm was the only sun god, and so was Yu-Kargzant, and
so was Yalem, and so was Osentalka, and so was Ehilm, because all their
deeds and encounters followed largely the same pattern.
Not very helpful, but then Greg Stafford might think myths this way...
>I only have a fairly mundane problem with the Yelmalio/Elmal revision : Who
>were those Sun Dome Templars invited to Prax in the late 8th century ST, and
>who did they worship?
Since they and the balazarings are the only Yelmalian group we have
detailed historical accounts of, we may assume that their god ws known
to them as Yelmalio. Maybe they had strong Aldryami influence, maybe
that was even the very reason they left their home. Was that in Sun
Dome County in Sartar, or close to Bikhy? Got to check my sources...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Elected kings
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Jul 93 17:50:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1256
___________________________
Greg Fried in X-RQ-ID: 1245
>>>
Joerg:
That was me using Clinton as an example of someone who must practice
ancestor worship as an aspect of his official duties of office.
Now all this business about kingship (or queenship) NECESSARILY
involving ancestor worship and lineage gets me thinking. WHat should
we think of elective office in Glorantha? SOmeone today said that in
Glorantha authority and (magical) power are congruent, and that seems
right to me. Thus, kingly status is intimately bound up with ritual
questions such as direct lineage etc. No "mundane" kingship, as it was
nicely put. But then would elective office be an expression of
"mundane" politics?
<<<
No, not at all. You see, most of the Orlanthi kings are actually
elected, from a limited number of candidates, agreed, but who actualy
becomes king has little to do with primogeniture. This applies to
conservative Orlanthi culture; Pelorian influence may have changed
that, as it did in Tarsh.
An interesting parallel is the difference between Hrestoli meritocracy
and Rokari strict class society. But then to become a member of the
Lord class in Hrestoli society one has to have been a Wizard before,
their equivalent for a priest. But then except in Seshnela the family
ties were never so important, and in Seshnela the linealists finally
won.
And then there are the upstart kings, reigning over self-made realms.
These guys are heroes in their own right - see Arim the Pauper, Sartar,
Harrek, Richard the Tigerhearted, or Argrath (I think his lineage isn't
_that_ pure; he seems to be heir by adoption more than by blood :-).
>>>
Would atheists prefer democracy in Glorantha? This would seem to
follow, since Gloranthan atheists want to negate the influence of
mythic entities over the Nowtime. (Don't they?)
<<<
In fact the Brithini and Vadeli have the strictest cast systems among
humans I know of in Glorantha, worde even than Yelmic systems. And to
call the Mostali atheists may not be too far from the truth, at least
those not practising individualism, openhandism or one of the other
heresies, and those who are individualistic are leaving the strict
chains of the cast system..
But the Zzaburi and Vadeli casts have ancestral ties, too, they just
don't acknowledge them. Or how would you call a cast that consists of
members of the same family, or the same race?
>>>
If elected office (and I'm not talking about elected CULT office --
although it can be hard to distinguish cult and political office in
GLorantha) need not depend on lineage, what form of ancestor worship would
such an office give one access to? Presumably all the spirits of the
collective "citizens" of the regime in question.
<<<
In Pavis, the true bloodline of Pavis the Founder has been lost in the
occupation by nomads and trolls, so the elected leaders become adopted
by the spirit of the city. Even to the extent that the spirit left his
original location and included the new city of Pavis into his
protection.
In Sun County the count is elected from a number of light sons who'd
qualify. Of course this is a religious prerequisite, but the final
process is "democratical" for a group of leaders. This senate democracy
was common in the antique, most notably in Athens and Rome where there
were different classes of citizens, in Rome patricians and plebejans.
In Ralian city states as I read it the electible rulers are chosen from
the old aristocratic families or from single individuals who have
proved their value, i.e. heroes.
The most democratic offices I can think of in Glorantha are the guild
positions. And these are often hereditarily allotted to certain
families and clans, leaving maybe two or three of a dozen positions
open for newcomers who have to prove their qualities.ou might say the
others have inherited their qualities, and in a certain sense they
have. This seems alien to our thinking, but Glorantha (and dark age
Europe) knows the ancestry as very solid and material advantage.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: RuneDeck
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Jul 93 18:37:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1257
Greg Fried here.
Boris:
EXCELLENT thoughts on a RuneDeck. I liked your thoughts on who to identify
with thevarious face cards, and that these identifications would vary
depending on cultic interpretations of the divine balance of power. I also
think your are right about the cross-fertilization of elements in the face
cards.
OK, now some problems. This deck is going to have a LOT of cards. Five suits
of ten cards each, plus 5 * 5 face cards, plus the major arcana -- that's 75+
cards. And if there's a Lunar deck, that's six suits *10, plus 6 * 6 face
cards, plus the majors -- over 100! But perhaps the response to this
problem is, so what?
SOme might advocate only 8 number cards in a suit, reflecting the 8 weeks of
the GLoranthan seasons. I would disagree, for two reasons. One is that
numeralogically, going from one to ten has always had importance in tarot
(though I suppose you could have reasons only for going to eight as well, but
since when has eight been particularly significant numerologically?). The
other is that I (along with others in the RQD) believe there SHOULD be ten
weeks in a season, including a Fate and a Luck week. In this way, each of
the numbered cards in each suit would be associated with a week of the season
which that suit itself represents (except the Lunar suit -- do they have an
alternative calendar? Perhpas they should have 6 seven week seasons with a
four week sacred time, reflected (pun intended!) by six suits of seven
numbered cards each. These are VERY sketchy thoughts.) Anyway, Lunarism
aside, then each number card would also be associated with one of the ten
power runes. Any thoughts on what number ought to go with what power rune?
Should we just follow the sequence in the calendar? Would each cultic deck
have its own numerical associations? In any case, with this system, by
drawing a number card in a suit, you are refered directly to a season and a
week -- pretty good for prophetic readings! Drawing another card could
pinpoint the day of the week.
What is the Lunar face card? I liked your idea of Thane as one of the court.
Where does lunar fit in? As a priest/priestess card in every elemental
house?(BTW, Eurmal will be in favor of a Jester face card in every house! HE
should at least get a Fool card in the Majors.) Would this card be "higher"
than the king card? My guess would be, Yes, if only in the Lunar suit
itself. Then, depending on your take on the Lunar relation to each of the
other elements, the priestess card would have a different rank in each suit!
(Fun for the eventual RunePoker game!)
For the Major Arcana, I would nix the cards we know of from the RW, and
substitute one based on the Form and Condition runes. NOTE! In a non-Lunar
deck, there will be a Moon card as a Form rune! Also, Chaos COULD be
associated with the Fool card in traditional Tarot (which is Zero in the
Major's sequence). Again, the composition of the Majors will depend on
local cultic interpretation and acceptance of the runes. Some might include
a Hunger rune, others exclude Moon, others not know about Dragonewt, others
include Law, etc. I suggest working out one fairly influential deck, say,
the Orlanthi one, and then provide indications as to how it would transform
under different cultic practice.
(Wow. Forget about RunePoker; RuneBridge would be quite a game with this
deck!)
GF out.
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: More RuneDeck
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Jul 93 19:07:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1258
GF back again.
Boris,
I just had an idea. Given that there are, depending on how your pantheon
counts them, about ten Form and Condition runes, I'd suggest that if we decide
that the Major arcana be constructed of these runes, there be ten of them,
just like in the elemental suits. My suggestion then would be that a Lunar
deck would appropriate the Majors as its suit, topping it off with its own
court of face cards and insinuating a priestess card into each of the other
suits! It seems to me that many of the Major Ar
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Oops! More RuneDeck still
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Jul 93 19:17:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1259
Yeargh! GF here -- glitched on my keyboard in mid-sentence.
As I was saying, it seems to me that the meaning of many of the Major Arcana
cards in the traditional tarot deck will be taken over by face cards in the
RuneDeck's elemental suits (eg, the Sun card), and others can be repesented by
form and condition runes, like the Magician by the Magic rune, Emperor by the
Mastery (or Slavery!) rune, etc. We do do have to duplicate the traditional
deck, anyhow, with the RuneDeck Majors. If the Majors do use the Form and
Condition runes, I suggest Chaos as the first numerically, representing EITHER
Fool OR Devil.
GF out.
---------------------
From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: DC on Joerg on DC
Message-ID:
Date: 11 Jul 93 01:22:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1260
Might I say, an excellent set of replies.
Re: All deities need Magic Points
I'm not too comfortable with this. I think that the more inherently
powerful the deity, the less of a need it has for worshippers. Isn't
there a listing somewhere of the "10 deities fundamental to Glorantha?"
Let's see: Humakt, Uleria, Yelm, Orlanth, Magasta... (CoTerror maybe?)
Personally I think the Dragon Emperor is more of a unique case. He
is just a regular joe who gets elevated to the status of living goodhood.
The Pharoah was powerful enough to defeat the Only Old One _before_
anyone worshipped him. The Red Emperor has uniquely powerful genetic
heritage. Godyuna is some guy with "regularly rolled stats."
Re: Dragon Pass Analogies
I tend to agree with your estimations, at first look. I have
daydreams about a huge Genertela map, in Dragon Pass scale (big!),
where the whole of the Hero Wars could be played out. Those
Brithini: only a few counters, but boy are they tough!..
Re: The magic of Kralorela
Perhaps a better way to say my original intent:
"I think it was a mistake to use the core sorcery rules as a
basis for the unique magic of Kralorela." I have thought about
it a bit, and this is what I see happening:
Eastern cultures have a strong sense of family obligation.
If the stated system were really in effect in Kralorela, there
would be a lot of 1 POW spirits going to Yelm heaven, or Dendara
heaven, or whatever. Why?
Situation: A grandfather/grandmother/whatever senses his
time to pass on is near. There would be a big family ritual where
this person would "bless" one of the children of the family. Just
which child would be a big family-political issue, and there would
inevitably be social conventions evolved to help decide.
Anyway, the "blessing" takes the form of a long-duration sorcery
spell: something that could help the child get through to adulthood.
Enhance (Characteristic) would be popular, I think. Use your
imagination.
The grandfather uses up all his POW, as a final gift to his
descendent, and is then free to die in peace. He's going to heaven.
No need for lots of POW up there, right?
This just doesn't seem right to me, IF in fact it did evolve.
Re: Relationship between Worshipper and Deity
(Carl Fink: Skip this section!)
Yes, I have made some different assumptions about this relationship,
for the purposes of the Rune Power divine magic system. One that
contradicts current rules is Inactive Initiates still being able to
cast their divine spells. I wouldn't allow it. "You have forsaken
me, but you still want a miracle?!?"
I agree with your interpretation (Divine Intervention = Deity fills
the worshipper. Divine Magic = Worshipper awakens spark of deity).
The "worshipper becomes deity" thing comes right from Stafford.
Whether this was a 'Gloranthan Fact' or a passing thought is beyond
me.
Re: God Learner Groupings of Magic
Yes, the God Learner's mistake was they made too-broad
generalizations in their observations. In their quest for the
E=mc^2 of magic, they lost sense of the 'little picture'
necessary to play a respectful part in the world.
In being a "GL Sympathizer," I mean that I think it's OK to
look at Spirit/Divine/Sorcery magics as distinct and dissimilar.
* I like the idea of presenting this to new players, and then
letting them discover the 'truth' as their Gloranthan sophistication
develops.*
Isn't it kind of neat to have been brought up within
the Sartarite tradition, and then hear a mystic hermit (like Nick
Brooke) say something that sounds familiar and believable, but
which totally twists your previous beliefs? In Sartar, Humakti
and Zorak Zorani have a good healthy hatred for each other.
ZZs even make zombies! But, somewhere down in Pamaltela, these
two are worshipped as brothers, _in the same temple_. If
you like that one, ask Nick what he thinks!..
Re: Dormal
My theory. The only reason the "Open Seas" ritual is listed as
a Sorcery Spell is because the way you learn it. It's not an
all-or-nothing spell you take from some spirit, and it's not a
divine miracle you invoke. It's a _skill_ you develop. Abandon
ship all hands whose Captain admits that this is his first
voyage! "I've lived inland all my life, and the sea has a
certain romanticism for me..." just won't cut it in Glorantha!
By serving as a sailor, you can glance over at the captain
how-many-times, and learn your first 10-25% of "Open Seas Ritual."
By being First Mate, you actually take part, the Captain taking a
more active role in teaching you the skill (if you mess up, he
dies too). You've now got maybe 35-65%.
Since it's a spell, you can take your time, and enhance the
spell with Ceremony, raising your chance even more when the time
comes.
Related concept: I've seen several examples where players had
to develop a skill to "invoke" a heroquest. You've got to slowly,
bit by bit, to learn the procedure.
Yea, that's it: each voyage is a Heroquest to overcome the
adversity of the seas. I like that. (c) 1993, David Cheng ;-).
Summary: The Open Seas spell has nothing to do with 'sorcery,'
except that it is learned like any other skill (like sorcery).
It is a great example of an exception to the God Learner rule
that the three types of magical disciplines can't cross.
Enough ranting from me. Come to RuneQuest-Con - we'll have a whole
seminar on this stuff. We'll even get Nick Brooke to lead it
(I've proposed this to him already, and await his reply, hint hint).
-David Cheng
drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu