(Message rqd:14) Return-Path:Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (sunnl) by homeland.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06495; Wed, 14 Jul 93 17:16:30 +0200 Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA10945; Wed, 14 Jul 93 17:15:56 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09444; Wed, 14 Jul 93 17:15:12 +0200 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 17:15:12 +0200 Message-Id: <9307141515.AA09444@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 14 Jul 1993, part 1 Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM Precedence: junk Status: O The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld) --------------------- From: jarec@cix.compulink.co.uk (Simon Basham) Subject: Too many players Message-ID: Date: 14 Jul 93 08:44:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1275 I know that from most peoples perspectives trying to find players is a problem. Well I have the opposite problem. My RQIV group currently has 11 players and 15 characters and at least another three players who want to join. I can't cope, scenarios aren't tough enough. I really want about 4-5 players but I don't want to discourage people from playing RQ by killing loads of PC's off. I've tried to get someone else to run a RQ game in another region but all people want to do is play. Any suggestions greatly appreciated, I party have just wiped out 15 Tusk riders and are heading to Pavis. I don't think I can cope with running a game this big in somewhere like the Rubble. PS I loved the mini story by Loren Miller, a real slice of life. If I ever get time from book keeping my game to write up some of my ideas properly I'll fill the digest for a couple of weeks. Till then think on this one: "Maybe Gimpy's serve Walktapus stew, that's why the pot's never empty?" "Alive and CIXing" Jarec@cix.compulink.co.uk --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 13 Jul 1993, part 1 Message-ID: <9307131753.AA02849@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 13 Jul 93 17:53:44 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1276 Paul R. here. Just a couple of quick things today. Reply to David Cheng: > Summary: The Open Seas spell has nothing to do with >'sorcery,' except that it is learned like any other skill (like I tend to disagree. The curse of Zzabur closed the seas, using sorcery (so the Open Seas spell must have _something_ to do with sorcery) which exploits the natural laws of Glorantha in an orderly pattern. Finding a procedure which fools the curse could easily be sorcery (drawing on the same store of knowledge which was used to design the curse.) Perhaps the spell 'tricks' the curse into categorizing the ship as a 'natural' object and thus avoids triggering it? -------- Reply to Graeme Lindsell: Nice work on Kralorelan Ancestor worship. This of course brings in another Chinese parallel. More on Gloranthan parallels another time... Do we need 'most' adult Kralorelan citizens to be acolytes or just (for example) the matriarchs of families? ------ Nice story, Loren. ----- To Joerg and Rob: There are at least two models which might apply in Glorantha: 1. Deities gain their power from worship and sacrifice, plus a relatively small amount of native power and any stolen power. It is possible to 'steal' another deity's worship (e.g., Sheng Seleris and the Red Emperor.) This model might be used by the Malkioni in explaining the pagan gods. 2. The greater deities have truly tremendous power, independent of worship, but are bound by the Compromise into using that power in set ways, except where free-willed mortals summon the deity's power into the world through sacrifice, or when directly confronting Chaos. Thus (for example), EVERY act of sex, every conception of new life, etc. is performed through the power of Uleria. Each such act is magical in itself but people are so used to it that they have become jaded. Similarly, each wind is caused by an air god, Flamal causes all plants to grow, etc., but because they are bound to set patterns of exerting these powers we grow used to the miracles around us and call them 'mundane'. The gods may not interfere directly in mortal affairs but instead use proxies like Rune Priests, who exchange some of their own power to allow a bit of their god's power into the world. This is, I think, a common model among the more sophisticated (barbarian and civilized) theistic cultures. The gods are elevated to the status of the prime movers of the world. Evidence for this view: The primal gods (Arachne Solara, Uleria, Trickster, maybe Earth Witch, Hykim & Mykih, Horned Man, a few other examples) seem not to need the usual cult structure to support the powers of their proxies. >look at the different versions of gods scattered >around Generatela In model (2) this is explained by saying that gods have many aspects and are bound by the compromise to not interfere in the Inner World unless invited by mortals, so the aspect known locally to the mortals colors how the god acts in that region. ----- More later, Paul --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: Down Message-ID: Date: 13 Jul 93 21:31:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1277 Greg Fried here. My mailbox for email was down for several days. I apologize to those of you who tried to get through to me, since your mail was certainly returned to you. My mailbox is now functioning. --------------------- From: s.manning@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: Open Seas and Kings Message-ID: <9307131749.AA12053@giga.ma.ic.ac.uk> Date: 13 Jul 93 19:49:31 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1278 Firstly, in case anybody remembers my first set of ramblings, I apologise for filling up vital space, but I have decided to send in a few comments more comments, so here goes nothing. Re: Open Seas. I think that when GoG says it is sorcery, it's because it is! That is why the Malkioni are allowed to use it. The RQ rulebooks and the Malkioni "What The Priest Says" are both very clear on the nature of sorcery: it is the direct manipulation of nature by the individual. OK, to be fair, it is probably just one "direct" (scientific?) way, but that's all it is, a "natural" nagic. Indeed, every thing written about how sorcery works portrays it as just a skill, precisely as David Cheng says. OK, again I am making generalisations, because the post-Hrestol Malkioni, or at least the Rokari, view sorcery spells as prayers, but we've been down this path before.... If Steve Gilham (X-RQ-ID: 1271) is right, then there won't be much sailing done in Glorantha if the magic changes again with RQ4. In any case, didn't Nochet once have a Bishop, so Dormal may well have been a Malkioni. If not, why did the Westerners accept him quite so readily? Indeed, why did Dormal sail West and not in some other direction. Re: Kingship This has been a very interesting discussion on an anthropogically major subject! All I wish to say on this is that I think that it is the position of head of state that is important. For many cultures inheritance is important, but it is having, for example, a head to wear the crown of kingship that really matters and not so much whose head it is. In this I bow both to history, think of the English kings: Saxon, Norman, then more finely, Angevin, Plantagenet, Tudor, etc. or, better still, how Pepin the Short, while Mayor of Paris, deposed the Merovingian's, establishing the line that would be known as the Carolingians. I also bow to the greatest of all the GodLearners, the late Joseph Campbell-see "The Hero With A Thousand Faces", p.72, for a note on how it is the position and not the individual filling it that counts. For a Gloranthan example I, of course, turn westwards to Loskalm. The concept of King here could not be further from the dynastic model, and yet of the king(Genertela, Bk. 2, p11) "He is also the court of last resort, the poorest man's champion, and the sacrificial hero, ready to die in the ultimate rite of his religion." This, from Malkioni! This is the stuff of kings. See the film "Excalibur". Does any of this make sense? P.S. I guess that Richard the Lion Heart + Jerusalem (The Holy City) ====> Richard the Tiger-Hearted + Malkonwal (the Malkioni holy city). --------------------- From: mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com (boris) Subject: RuneDeck Message-ID: <199307131524.AA03829@batman.b11.ingr.com> Date: 13 Jul 93 15:24:21 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1279 Boris here. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Greg Fried wrote in X-RQ-ID: 1257-1259 >OK, now some problems. This deck is going to have a LOT of cards. Five suits >of ten cards each, plus 5 * 5 face cards, plus the major arcana -- that's 75+ >cards. And if there's a Lunar deck, that's six suits *10, plus 6 * 6 face >cards, plus the majors -- over 100! But perhaps the response to this >problem is, so what? 97 cards if we have as many majors as the RW deck. If the Glorantha majors are based on the the Form and Condition runes, then it would be fewer. Still more than a RW tarot deck, but not tremendously more (85+ vs. 78). BTW, I like your idea of associating the number cards with the Power runes. (As well as adding two weeks to each season. I forget who suggested this on the daily a week or so ago, but my group has adopted it to make things easier [and also so I wouldn't have to decide whether human aging and gestation went faster than in RW]). We could keep the same sequence as the calendar, though having the Harmony rune be the Three card is tempting ;-) Regardless of how we order them, many (if not most) of the number cards will also have divine correspondences. This being the case, perhaps we should assign Power rune correspondeces to each suit separately. This way, we can order each suit for best effect. For instance, if we base it on (one of) the Runic Pentagrams that has been suggested, then the Aces could be the overcoming rune of each element, and the 10's the overcome rune. The cards in between would progress in sequence around the pentagram. Thus, for the pentagram given by Nick Brooke in the 5/15 Daily (the one he said he preferred, that is), the progression would be: Value Darkness Sea Earth Sky Storm Ace Death Motion Harmony Truth Luck Deuce Fertility Stasis Disorder Illusion Fate Trey Harmony Truth Luck Death Motion Four Disorder Illusion Fate Fertility Stasis Five Luck Death Motion Harmony Truth Six Fate Fertility Stasis Disorder Illusion Seven Motion Harmony Truth Luck Death Eight Stasis Disorder Illusion Fate Fertility Nine Truth Luck Death Motion Harmony Ten Illusion Fate Fertility Stasis Disorder As I said, many of these cards suggest particular deities. Most of them would be repeated in the court cards, however, so they would usually not be explicitly depicted here. >What is the Lunar face card? I liked your idea of Thane as one of the court. >Where does lunar fit in? As a priest/priestess card in every elemental >house? I like your idea of having Priestess represent the element of Moon for the Lunar deck; it would have qualities such as Madness, Illusion, and Balance. It might outrank all the other court cards, or perhaps a more lunar way would be for it to vary in rank, as you suggest, representing the phases of the moon. Of course the Lunar deck would be built on the Dara Happan tradition, and thus the King would represent Yelm, and the Firey aspects of each element. They'd most likely not have either the Thane or Beast cards; for the Stormy aspects (rebellion, treachery, and dishonor) they'd have something like the Outlaw, which would rank lowest in the court. For Darkness (representing Death, Fear, and Hatred??) they'd have the Ghost perhaps? Perhaps Beast is appropriate there as well. Also, your idea of the lunars appropriating the Major Arcana for their number cards is probably not necessary. So what if they have 21 more cards than the "normal" deck, the lunars thrive on complexity; they'd probably see it as that much better. (BTW, I agree that Eurmal should be a major; having him as 0 is appealing. >For the Major Arcana, I would nix the cards we know of from the RW, and >substitute one based on the Form and Condition runes. NOTE! In a non-Lunar >deck, there will be a Moon card as a Form rune! Also, Chaos COULD be >associated with the Fool card in traditional Tarot (which is Zero in the >Major's sequence). Again, the composition of the Majors will depend on >local cultic interpretation and acceptance of the runes. Some might include >a Hunger rune, others exclude Moon, others not know about Dragonewt, others >include Law, etc. I also see no reason to cling to the RW trumps for this, and the Form and Condition runes seem an excellent place to start. Some of the cards will have RW trump equivalents; I see no reason to strive to avoid this either. For the most part, representing Form and Condition runes in the Major Arcana seems workable. However, for at least the Condition runes, there seems to be pairs of mythic images that represent different aspects. These are (IMHO) fundamental mythic images that should be represented, but that have some runic overlap. But that can be done by using the Power Runes, as below. Runes Card RW Equivalent (if any) Magic & Harmony The Priestess The High Priestess Magic & Disorder The Storm Voice The Hierophant Mastery & Truth The RuneLord The Emperor Mastery & Illusion The Trickster The Fool Infinity & Death The Questers The Hanged Man Infinity & Fertility The Web Fortune Law & Stasis The Spike The Tower Law & Motion The Tribal Ring Adjustment Dragonewt ???? The Hermit Plant ???? The Lovers Beast The Berserker Lust Man Initiation Death Spirit The Kolating The Magus Chaos The Devil The Devil Moon The Moon The Moon I have no ideas for Dragonewt, Plant or Man. Well, that's enough for now. As always, comments are welcome. ---- Boris