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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 16 Jul 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
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Status: RO

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
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---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 15 Jul 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <9307151605.AA03558@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 15 Jul 93 16:05:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1286


  Paul Reilly here.

  Greg Fried says

>Surely not ALL sex takes place through Uleria.  Just ask Thed....  A very
>good example of a deity stealing another deity powers, or horning in on her
>mana-territory.

  Excellent example.  Remember that Thed was an important Fertility deity
in Godtime before joining the Unholy Trio.  Thus, in the Devolutionary
model, she must be a descendant (probably a daughter) of Uleria, the
C.C. Fertility deity.  The powers of the parent are represented in the
children, and their identities are often mixed up.  (Examples abound: many
deeds are attributed to both Orlanth and Umath, to name one.)  I tend to
think that from one point of view the greater gods have lesser children
who embody part of their powers, and from another point of view those
"children" are just parts or aspects of the greater deities.  So from
one point of view Thed is a part or aspect of Uleria.

  In our campaign Thed is Goddess of Rape (as is standard) and rapists,
especially repeat or gang rapists, have a chance of becoming involuntary
(or at least unconscious) Initiates of Thed.  Rape is defined according to
the standards of the society, thus Ygg's Islanders carrying off women as 
their lawful booty in battle doesn't count, but raping a respectable maid
from their own culture would get Thed's attention.  The act opens the door
to Thed, who may send dreams or visions to the rapist which allow him to
set up a shrine and a local cult.  A group of gang rapists might even form a 
Coven.

  This sort of thing is part of the Great Compromise - those who break a
taboo are the lawful prey of the 'evil' gods.  Thus a traitor might
become an initiate of the god of treachery (written up by Steve Maurer, I
think), cannibals may become Cacodemon initiates, etc.  I have run a couple
of fun scenarios in our campaigns based on this idea - someone screws up
and opens the door to more evil.  The canonical example is of course Mallia.
---
  Lots of good Tarot ideas - when we ran this we used an ordinary Tarot
deck and 'cheated' to account for the differences in the Gloranthan Tarot.
It would be fun to draw up a full Gloranthan Deck.  There are  many
variants being discussed: I don't think that this is a real problem, instead
I think that if cards are used for divination then there will be many 
such variants in Glorantha.  

  Interesting variant on Zorak Zoran (Darksun.)  Two comments: there is
already such a figure in standard Yelm mythology: (A jester whose name starts
with B...) do you make the identification there?  (Also the Black Sun in
the Kingdom of Ignorance).   The other thing is that the ancient Sumerians
had a black sun in the underworld.  At some point I will do a writeup on
cross cultural contacts between the ancient Near East and Glorantha.

---------------

  Reply to Rob Mace:
I said (abridged):
> 1.  Deities gain their power from worship and sacrifice, plus a relatively
> small amount of native power and any stolen power.

> 2.  The greater deities have  power, independent of worship,
> but are bound by the Compromise into using that power in set ways, except
> where free-willed mortals summon the deity's power into the world through
> sacrifice, or when directly confronting Chaos.

  Your model correspond to my Model 2, then.  I have read many stories where
Model 1 was true.  I like Model 2 for Glorantha, it seems to be more like what
the theist Gloranthans believe.


 I used Uleria's Fertility as an example.  Rob said:

>These are examples of powers not of gods.  A god may embody one or more
>of these powers but these powers do not require a god to work.  They work
>just as well in lands that are filled with atheistic sorcerers.

  So what?  Remember this is the Theist model.  Remember the Celestial
Court gave their powers freely to all regardless of worship.  _They_ set
the natural laws for Glorantha by their actions, the laws work regardless of
mortal belief.  In this model Fire rises because Aether went to live in the 
Upper World when Umath was born.  Gold (Yelm's metal) is heavy because
Yelm was killed and went to the Underworld.  Stone is cold and lifeless 
because Mostal's brother Stone was killed.  Deciduous trees drop their 
leaves in response to Flamal's slaying at the hands of Zorak Zoran.  These
gods set the pattern for the world and things follow that pattern despite
human belief or lack thereof.  If I walk along a muddy path and leave footprints
that harden when the mud dries, the local insects may or may not believe that
I formed their local topography.  Their belief won't change the shape of the
footprints.  Same thing with gods and men.  Those Westerners are aware
of the laws, which are the footprints of the god's actions, but foolishly
deny the real reasons for the laws.  (Remember, this is the theist's
argument.)

>Basically Glorantha is a world were the world view of everyone that lives
>is correct.  The sorcerers are right in their world view, the deists are
>right in theirs, the dragonnewts are right in theirs, etc..

  I tend to agree.  Note however that the definition of 'right' is tricky
here.  Are the Tusk Riders 'right'?  How about people who worship God
Learner constructs like Caladra and Aurelion?  If by 'right' you mean
'useful' I agree.  While Glorantha doesn't have a rigid underlying objective
reality like ours, I think that there is an objective reality of some kind.

  Let's do a gedankenexperiment.  I raise a child in a cellar in Boldhome
and tell him all about the marvelous Celestial Empire outside with its flying
golden chariots and fifty legged steeds to draw them across the sky.  He
really, really believes this.  What does he find when he goes outside?
Remember, "Glorantha is a world were the world view of everyone that lives
is correct."

---------------------

From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: of chickens and eggs and ancient tactics
Message-ID: <9307151849.AA19395@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 15 Jul 93 18:49:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1287

>>  From: mace@lum.asd.sgi.com (Rob Mace)
>>  Subject: Short Swords
>>  Date: 7 Jul 93 04:56:10 GMT
>>  X-RQ-ID: 1237
>>  
>>  My understanding is that it had more to do with metallurgy.  They did not
>>  have the technology to make longer swords that would hold up in combat.
>>  They could however make a short heavy thrusting sword.  Because of this
>>  tactics developed around its use.  Because these tactics existed and were
>>  proven they continued past the bronze age into times when longer swords
>>  could be made.
>>  
>>  > Longer swords would require more room to swing and would sow disorder in a
>>  > phalanx.
>>  
>>  This is true.  But I think it was more the weapon leading to the tactic then
>>  the tactic leading to the weapon.


The hoplite phalanx was developed with the idea of the 'immovable object'. This 
implied strong defense, and ability to wear down attackers. Hence, whopping big
round shields, which protected you, and a bit of your buddy, and the fairly weak
overhand spear stab. These were better at resisting casualties, than in inflicting 
them.

The macedonian phalanx was developed to be the 'irresistable force'. It was less 
well-protected, with slightly smaller shields slung from straps, and the pike was
used underhanded, with two hands. It's defense was derived from its offense. 
The pike phalanx was able to butcher whatever it contacted, out of the reach 
of all other weapons, and just rolled over top of opposition.  Whatever made it 
through the onslaught, and got under the pikes was probably able to inflict a few 
casualties, and sow some disorder, but was then trampled to death in short order.

The sword was always a secondary weapon in these cultures. Spears and pikes were 
much easier for training and drilling occasional soldier citizens. After these 
tactics were developed, then the use of the short-sword evolved.

Roman tactics were different. The troops would throw _very_ heavy javelins at the 
opposition, and then work over the remainder with stabbing swords, while trying to
maintain an orderly formation, and as much as possible, a closed wall of shields. 
They also were more mobile, and easier to steer than either of the phalanxes.
(Turning around with a horizontal 10-20 ft. stick isn't just for sit-coms anymore.)


>>  > What kind of advantages would you give to a short-sword user
>>  > under what circumstances?  After all -- why use the weapon under the current
>>  > rules, since it does less damage than a broadsword and has no benefits (that
>>  > Ican remember)?
>>  
>>  They do get the advantage of the better impale rules verses the slash rules.


What should also happen is that users of thrusting weapons should be able to 
better protect themselves with their shields, whereas users of swinging weapons 
open themselves up a bit more. Hence the roman use of the gladius, which 
allowed a semi-intact shield-wall while employing the sword in a stabing fashion. 
Only when roman unit cohesion failed, would the sloppier use of the relatively 
dull- edged gladius be employed, and then as much as anything to bash opponents 
out of the way.


>>  > imagine Lunar formations equiped with spear, shield and shortsword, while the
>>  > Orlanthi warriors, used to individualistic fighting (like the Gauls and
>>  > ZCelts) wield broadswords and axes.  Does this sound right to your SCA
>>  > experience?
>>  
>>  Formation tactics can be used with almost any weapon.  The type of formation
>>  will dictate what weapon is going to be more effective.  A bigger factor in
>>  ...
>>  Different styles work for different people.


Should also read 'for different peoples'. The society defined the soldiery. 
In Hellenistic city-states, preserving the citizenry, and thus the city-state, 
was paramount. Macedonian tactics were for well-drilled civilized people, but 
were developed to clobber and invade. Gaulish and other barbarian tactics 
showed the individuality and energy of the barbarians, at the expense of 
discipline. Their formations were much more open, allowing the more powerful 
swinging weapons, but as a result, they were less well protected, and when 
facing more disciplined, better protected Roman troops often died like dogs.


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|  john_medway@zycor.lgc.com  |  Landmark Graphics Corp  |  512.292.2325  |
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---------------------

From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: eating and eating disorders
Message-ID: <9307151902.AA19415@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 15 Jul 93 19:02:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1288

Have you ever gotten the idea that Lunars have eating problems?

One Tarshite king choked to death on a 'surfeit of river squid and honeyed 
clams, dusted with the powder of the black poppy'. Euglyptus the Fat, one-
time governor in Boldhome choked to death on a 'surfeit of sugared eels'.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


BTW: I'm still looking for suggestions as to what to feed the players of my 
new _supposedly_ Lunar gaming group for our first session. 

Ideas I have (gotten) so far:

	river squid ( will be calamari or cuttlefish )
	honeyed clams
	eels
	pork
	corn ( prepared how? )
	barley ( ditto )
	No melons or squash, unless imported ( source = ? )


Any other ideas?

Do these poeple have forks, or do they eat with their hands? with spoons?
Where's a Lhankor Mhy ( aka anthropologist ) when you need one?


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|  john_medway@zycor.lgc.com  |  Landmark Graphics Corp  |  512.292.2325  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


---------------------

From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: More on Dormal and Sorcery
Message-ID: 
Date: 15 Jul 93 19:57:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1289

I agree wholeheartedly with Tim Leask.  I was going to say the exact same
thing, but was beaten to the punch.  

One thing in _favor_ of Open-Seas-as-Sorcery theory: I now remember a quote
somewhere; it says that Dormal was aided in his research by a "crafty 
old sorcerer" or something like that, right?

BUT: This is all tangential.  I believe the original question was 
"how can non-sorcerers cast the sorcery spell 'Open Seas'?"  My simple
answer is "it's more like a ritual than a sorcery spell.  But, 
because you learn it incrementally (like a sorcery spell), that's
how it is listed." 

So, IMHO, 'Open Seas' is a pseudo-ritual, more so than a sorcery
spell.

Enough on that topic.
-DC

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 14 Jul 1993, part 1
Message-ID: 
Date: 16 Jul 93 06:15:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1290

Joerg again:

_________________________
David Cheng on Open Seas:

The argument that sorcery is skill based magic is not valid since Open Seas 
is a ritual spell, the skill used is ceremony. I'm seriously wondering why 
a magic system was assigned at all.

____________________________
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 1276

> Reply to Graeme Lindsell:

>   Nice work on Kralorelan Ancestor worship.  This of course brings in another
> Chinese parallel.  More on Gloranthan parallels another time...  Do we need
> 'most' adult Kralorelan citizens to be acolytes or just (for example) the
> matriarchs of families?

Generally agreed. A question though, Graeme: if the summoning cost is 1, 
2 or 3D3 of sacrificed POW (sorry, don't remember your technical term) and 
the summoner rolles more points than available, what happens?

Acolytehood: While this is certainly a consequence of family rank (i.e. 
every ranking family member will be one), I'd make it possible, but not 
mandatory for the rest of the family. Any household-leader or shop-owner 
would qualify, though.

Deathbed blessings: While I agree with Graeme that the form he described 
ought to be avoided, I find the idea intriguing. What about a spiritual 
pledge of the dying ancestor to a special descendant that in time of 
trouble he or she can rely on the ancestor poppig up and helping out, as 
in the Daka Fal Spirit Guardian spell?

>   To Joerg and Rob:

>   There are at least two models which might apply in Glorantha:
> 1.  Deities gain their power from worship and sacrifice, plus a relatively
> small amount of native power and any stolen power.  It is possible to
> 'steal' another deity's worship (e.g., Sheng Seleris and the Red Emperor.)
>   This model might be used by the Malkioni in explaining the pagan gods.

I view deities as having a certain amount of personal power (not only the 
characteristic!), the amount they had when achieving apotheosis if humans-
become-deity, or their native powers inherited fromtheir divine parents, 
i.e. mastery of some runes and association in varying degree to the others. 
This makes them just stronger demons. To gain real power, they need the magic 
transferred to them by worship.

> 2.  The greater deities have truly tremendous power, independent of worship,
> but are bound by the Compromise into using that power in set ways, except
> where free-willed mortals summon the deity's power into the world through
> sacrifice, or when directly confronting Chaos.

>   Thus (for example), EVERY act of sex, every conception of new life, etc.
> is performed through the power of Uleria.  Each such act is magical in
> itself but people are so used to it that they have become jaded.  Similarly,
> each wind is caused by an air god, Flamal causes all plants to grow, etc.,
> but because they are bound to set patterns of exerting these powers we
> grow used to the miracles around us and call them 'mundane'.  The gods
> may not interfere directly in mortal affairs but instead use proxies like
> Rune Priests, who exchange some of their own power to allow a bit of
> their god's power into the world.

You might as well say that every act of voluntary sex (I wouldn't include 
raping broos) is an unconscious form of Uleria worship, even though the magic 
transferred isn't measurable in MP. But then emotions have some inherent 
magic.

Natural phenomenons like winds, well, I'm not that certain. Certainly they 
happen under the domain of some deity or the other, but at least I see no 
conscious effort in them, rather an instinctive reaction to other actions. 
Very much a cause-action sequence.

>   This is, I think, a common model among the more sophisticated (barbarian
> and civilized) theistic cultures.  The gods are elevated to the status of
> the prime movers of  the world.

Not the runes?

>   Evidence for this view:  The primal gods (Arachne Solara, Uleria, Trickster,
> maybe Earth Witch, Hykim & Mykih, Horned Man, a few other examples) seem 
> not to need the usual cult structure to support the powers of their proxies.

I think the usual cult structure as presented in GoG is too rigid anyway. 
I have some problems with the mental acrobatics involved in the subcult thing 
for Orlanth in RoC, and I really can't apply the generalized Yelm write-up 
to any existing Gloranthan solar culture.

>>look at the different versions of gods scattered
>>around Generatela

>   In model (2) this is explained by saying that gods have many aspects and 
> are bound by the compromise to not interfere in the Inner World unless invited
> by mortals, so the aspect known locally to the mortals colors how the
> god acts in that region.

Another puzzle there. Are the five Arkats to come aspcts of one now divine 
being?

__________________________.
S.Manning in X-RQ-ID: 1278

> Re: Open Seas.
[ ... ]
> 	In any case, didn't Nochet once have a Bishop, so Dormal may well have
> been a Malkioni. If not, why did the Westerners accept him quite so readily?
> Indeed, why did Dormal sail West and not in some other direction.

I really wonder that he dared! Malkionism in Maniria is mostly of the 
Stygian heresy, and what I have heard about the Westerners, heretics are 
likely to be burned.

> Re: Kingship
> 	This has been a very interesting discussion on an anthropogically major
> subject! All I wish to say on this is that I think that it is the position of
> head of state that is important. For many cultures inheritance is important,
> but it is having, for example, a head to wear the crown of kingship that really
> matters and not so much whose head it is. In this I bow both to history, think
> of the English kings: Saxon, Norman, then more finely, Angevin, Plantagenet, 
> Tudor, etc. or, better still, how Pepin the Short, while Mayor of Paris, deposed
> the Merovingian's, establishing the line that would be known as the 
> Carolingians. I also bow to the greatest of all the GodLearners, the late Joseph
> Campbell-see "The Hero With A Thousand Faces", p.72, for a note on how it is
> the position and not the individual filling it that counts.

Well, the Germanic peoples in England chose their kings from several members of 
divine ancestry. I remember hearing in a history lecture about the problems 
the (Christian!) Mercian dynasty had with coming up with Odin in their 
ancestry, and William the Conqueror had a legitimate claim to the throne of 
England, while Harold the Saxon was only an elected minor noble - no wonder 
that he failed, would any follower of this theory think.
Pippin the short carefully replaced one religious function (divine ancestry) 
with another (god-given kingship by the Pope salving his head, like it was 
custom among biblical jewish kings).

> 	For a Gloranthan example I, of course, turn westwards to Loskalm. The
> concept of King here could not be further from the dynastic model, and yet of 
> the king(Genertela, Bk. 2, p11) 
> 	"He is also the court of last resort, the poorest man's champion,
> 	and the sacrificial hero, ready to die in the ultimate rite of his
> 	religion."

Loskalmi kingship is of the heroical kind, like e.g. biblical David's claim 
to kingship after driving off the Philisters, combined with being salved 
king. Remember that a Hrestoli Lord has to be expert knight and expert 
Wizard, the theistic equuivalent would be the in RQ3 defunct status of 
Runelord/priest, or already a hero.

> This, from Malkioni! This is the stuff of kings. See the film "Excalibur".

I'd expect that Malkioni kings in general see themselves as kings by divine 
grace. In Orlanthi culture it's descent, not grace; this comes 
automatically, if in varying degrees.

> P.S. I guess that Richard the Lion Heart + Jerusalem (The Holy City)
> ====>
> Richard the Tiger-Hearted + Malkonwal (the Malkioni holy city).

Only that Jerusalem existed, while Malkonwal doesn't any more. (I think it 
was drowned with much of Seshnela, but there is no proof for that.)
It was a fiction Richard wanted to realize.

BTW, while I have virtually no knowledge about tarot, I enjoy reading your 
discussion about it!

PS: Free INT 5, the mag of the German RuneQuest-society, is out, 
accompagnying the German translation of GoG and centered around 
deities. If you understand German and are interested, e-mail me.
It's 40 pages, price 4.80 DM plus shipment, with the German language 
writeups of the cults of Yelm and the Red Emperor, a scenario, a short 
story, two reviews and two articles on initiates and their attitudes 
and magic.
Since I'm the editor I can only advertise, not recommend.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: wilms@advs2.gm.fh-koeln.de (Hartmut Wilms)
Subject: RQ-Digest
Message-ID: <9307160623.AA00376@advs2.gm.fh-koeln.de>
Date: 16 Jul 93 10:23:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1291

Hello!

My name is Hartmut. I'm a german student and I would like to
order the 'RuneQuest-Digest' and 'RuneQuest-Dailys'. I'm looking
forward to the next issue. Thank you very much.

e-mail:

wilms@advs2.fh-koeln.gm.de

P.S.: How do I get old issues???