Bell Digest v930904p2

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 04 Sep 1993, part 2
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Grey Sage's Telling
Message-ID: <930903234031_100270.337_BHB49-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 3 Sep 93 23:40:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1536

Back by popular demand...

I'm delighted to see some proper questions on the Daily again, and will do 
what I can to answer or inflame them. Funny how they all come at once!

_________________
Greg Fried asked:

> In the Big Rubble Guide (p.23) there is mentioned a divinity named 
> Ikadz the Torturer God; he is worshipped by some broos, but otherwise
> explained no further. Anyone know more about this god?  I have worked 
> on a torturer god, but he is not a chaotic.  In KoS, Ikadz is only very
> tangentially mentioned (p.38), but there he seems to have influence 
> over Earth Fury goddesses.

Well, you could check the Prosopaedia Book, or you could ask the Grey 
Sages. What we say is:

Back in Wyrms Footnotes 7 we heard of Ikadz the Torturer among the other 
Gods of the Dead: "a Burtae deity, and in some religions receives the souls 
of misdoers and cleanses them before they can join the other dead. Other 
cults worship him directly, and claim to receive magical power from their 
worship. Such cults are occasionally tolerated, but rarely encouraged by 
any except the most corrupt creatures upon the Surface Plane. This deity is 
a deadly foe of Humakt's."

*Not* necessarily a chaos god, though attractive to Chaotics. Like Malia.

If you want to know why Humakt hates Ikadz, ask Steve Thomas.

In Argrath's Saga, Ikadz is said to have been pleased to have Sheng Seleris 
back in his clutches. This is a little odd, as the Lunar Hell in which 
Sheng was confined is said to be outside of the gods' cosmos (p.33). Maybe 
the Red Goddess made him an offer he couldn't refuse...

Paul's suggestions are entertaining and workable, as usual. Patron of 
Dentists, eh? I preferred the Tooth Fairy.

> More Gloranthan lore questions!

Oh, good!

> I have read that the Issaries cult is a God Learner construct, but I 
> can't remember where.  Is this true?!  My Balazaring Issaries cultist I
> once played would be appalled!  What is the meaning of this?! The only
> thing I can think of is that the God Learners would have devised 
> Issaries as a 'front' god to get a hold of the divine magic of other
> cults.  Hm.  I guess that's pretty durned sneaky of them!

Yeah, it's true. Read the Issaries cult write-up (dashed sneaky chaps, 
those God Learners): "The cult was a favorite of the God Learners in the 
Second Age, and thus was seeded throughout Glorantha." The Middle Sea 
Empire is said to have *depended on* an Issaries cult trading network. If 
the Jrusteli *used* the cult that much without changing it one jot or 
tittle, I commend their restraint. But I don't believe it (especially when 
I remember Trade Talk, that monstrous convenience).

Mind you, Lhankor Mhy is a God Learner cult too... check the notes to the 
Dragonewt OUROBOROS poem in WF14 (I'd copy it out if I had it to hand).

> I also seem to remember reading that the reason Arkat and the Arkati 
> could hunt down Gbaji Illuminates so well was that they were Illuminated
> themselves!  Hence, they had the Illuminate's abilitiy to detect other
> Illuminates.  Where is this, or am I dreaming?

Yes, it's all true. Source is "Cults of Terror" p.89, a passage which was 
not reprinted in the new & improved Illumination write-up in "Dorastor":

   "The Arkat cult maintains a strict watch on itself and the rest
    of the world. As Illuminates, they can detect Illumination in 
    others... The cultists of Arkat consider themselves the epitome
    of the Light Side of Nysalor."

It may be that this is no longer so, but I hope it remains valid. The idea 
of Illuminates condemning Illumination as the ultimate evil is even better 
than the ironies inherent in the Lunar Empire.

The official (but officially unpublished) Chaosium "Saint Cult" write-up 
for Arkat gave his followers a Blessing which can reveal all Illuminates in 
range (including the caster himself). This was in an old RQ Digest, and 
again in Adam "What's 'Copyright' Mean?" Reynolds' collection of useful 
material. But I don't like that spell: it makes it all too easy!

> What is it with this Ralzakark dude?  Did anyone else get the
> impression from reading Dorastor that he is even MORE than the 
> awesome heroquesting Illuminate that he seems to be?  Given that 
> "other Ralzakark", the "hairy broo with a scorpion arm" (depicted 
> on the cover of the Genertela box!), it seems to me as if Ralzakark
> the unicorn thing/hairy broo is a mirror image, or echo of Nysalor/
> Gbaji himself.  What all this means, I know not.

See further, below...

> Anyone else getting multiple copies from the Daily, and other weirdness?

Yup: two copies of most of the recent editions. Henk?

> Can anyone out there tell me about the White Moon?  Why was there no 
> Moon in the Gloranthan sky at the time of the Red Moon's rise?

Nick's old heretical theory: the White Moon rose and fell in Godtime. The 
Blue Moon myths from Troll Gods are *really* about her. She was split in 
two halves by her passage through the chaos void at the heart of the world. 
Half became the Blue Moon, half the Red Moon.

Consider: before her fall the Blue Moon is said to have had powers over 
Balance, and Empire, and Water, and Secrets. The Blue Moon cult we know and 
love has powers over Water and Secrets, but no Empire and a complete lack 
of Balance. The Red Moon Empire meanwhile makes Balance its highest virtue.

Exactly how Argrath employed the Dragons to make the Red Moon turn White 
again is beyond me. I do not know the answer to the question of why there 
was no Moon in the sky before the rise of the Red Moon; I don't even know 
if it was really the case. Certainly there are ancient myths of a Moon that 
goes through phases, in the oldest known Dara Happan and Pelorian sources. 
Where she went between Godtime and 1247 ST is beyond me...

There are worse things I could say about the Dara Happans and the original 
Moon Goddess, but I'm trying to convince Greg of their veracity first... 
Wish me luck, guys!

__________________
Sam Phillips asks:
> BTW, where is Nick Brooke these days? He has been awfly quiet..

Tired and shagged out after a long squawk.

_________________
David Scott says:

> RQ Daily calling Nick Brooke, come in please, over.

"I cannot tell a lie", David: I was temping in your game last Tuesday. 
Remember? Stormin' Norman the Chaos Hedgehog of the Wastes? All your 
fault...

> Who thinks after reading Dorastor that Ralzakark is a part of Nysalor/
> Gbaji/Arkat, and what will happen if all the parts are brought together
> again? Will Nysalor/Gbaji/Arkat re-form?

Yeah! This is the "obvious" answer. Arkat, we know, had many bodies and 
many forms (cf. the Troll Gods Jonstown Compendium extract, "Arkat 
Returns!" in the Ralios chapter, my first ever posting to the RuneQuest 
Daily, etc.). At the climax of the Chaos Wars, a mortal man (OK, a mortal 
troll) fought a God known far and wide as the Deceiver. The battle ended. 
One survivor emerged from the rubble, and said "I'm Arkat, that corpse was 
the Deceiver."

Can you be *sure*, any more?

Arkat the Chaos Worshipper would surely become a broo, just as Dark Arkat 
became a troll... a more palatable troll to us humans, admittedly, but 
isn't the Unicorn Emperor a more palatable broo?

Anyone know anything deep / meaningful about Krjalk, Chaos God of Treason? 
Another sworn foe of Arkat the Traitor with whom he becomes naturally 
confused... "Well, if Osentalka was Nysalor, then Arkat was Gbaji." Eh? And 
what on earth do the Vadeli have to do with all this??

Oh, yeah, David: tell them about the Unbreakable Sword, why don't you?

___________
Simon says:

> Any Grey Sages out there?

It's been said...

> There is an obscure reference in 'King Of Sartar" which I would like 
> to know a bit more about. The 'Vingans' are mentioned several times.
> They appear to be a women's warrior or adventuring cult and are reputed
> to dye their hair red. They seem important enough to sometimes appear on
> the ruling councils in some clans or tribes. I do not have KoS with me
> at the moment, so I am working purely from my recollections and can't 
> give page references. I believe they are in the Index though. Does 
> anyone know anything about these people?

You've covered most of what we know. Vinga is a womens' god, also called 
'Orlanth Adventuress'. She's the goddess of women who turn to violence -- 
usually as a last resort to protect what they love. Think of the Sartar 
stead-wife taking up a spear to fight off raiders, or Boudicca leading a 
rebellion against Roman oppression. So probably in origin she's a defensive 
rather than adventuring cult, though it amounts to much the same in games. 
Y'know, the way "They killed my parents" becomes the rationale for violent 
excess used by people who'd go that way anyway...

Speculation: she is the sister of Vingkot the Victorious. Gives a good 
divine pedigree, and would fool an Anglo-Saxon genealogist.

Criticism: the 'Riskland' campaign abuses this goddess absurdly, having a 
*male* Wind Lord (Berra Thengen) represent Vinga on the council. I guess 
this is part and parcel of the RuneQuest "Equal Opportunities" disease that 
brought us Starnia Stormrender, Vega Goldbreath, and that priest who 
enchanted Nose-Biter. But I found those cases absurd too. Some day they'll 
print a (non-Aldryami) female initiate of Yelm, and then I will explode.

_________________
Clay Luther asked:

> Does someone have a better idea of what the Watchdog is and looks like?
> I feel I must have missed something somewhere if the Watchdog and the
> Cyclops are so much alike.

Yeah! The Watchdog is a partial reconstruction of the "Colossus" statue you 
posit. The original had a complete body, but most of that has been lost to 
the ravages of Time. The Lunars rebuilt what they could, but that was just 
two arms and a Cyclops head.

Steve Thomas used the 'Cyclops' as a God Learner symbol in order to show 
the short-sightedness, narrow viewpoint and ultimate vulnerability of their 
masters. Hope it worked for you, too. I felt that I was trapped in a Ray 
Harryhausen 'Sinbad' film when we playtested his scenario, and there can be 
few feelings more pleasant.

____________________________
Joerg Baumgartner commented:

> The legend of the Wolfbear led me to speculation: After all, there is 
> one chief of the Wolf Pirates who has conquered the White Bear of 
> Rathorela, a certain berserk...
> Too wild speculations?

Too *obvious*, I'd have thought. And it's not nice to think of Harrek 
receiving some 'awakening' enlightenment while stuffed into Dorasta's 
Cleft. I'd prefer to put my hopes in Paul Reilly's Wolverine Hsunchen as 
the potential saviours of Glorantha.

> Those of us still hunting for their PhD in Gloranthan Lore got a bit to 
> chew on. Ralzakark is _not_ the bad guy, only illuminated, and far from 
> being a monster - if he choses so. Rather face him than Harrek. He even 
> has Chalana Arroy broos in service. A real gentleman trying to keep the 
> chaos hordes in line.

Like our own beloved Red Emperor, who is selflessly devoted to furthering 
the spiritual evolution of the entire human race. I liked Ralzakark, but I 
preferred his Face. Besides, Ralzakark is a Bad Guy to his fellow broos! 
Hell, he even has a bodyguard of broo castrati! (And you *can't* get more 
extreme than that!)

> Another rather obscure mention of Harmast Barefoot's heroquest for 
> Arkat. Are there any more detailed sources?

It's not that obscure a story. I'll piece the known bits together some time 
and post them to this list, if there's more interest.

> The Mad Sultan: Is it still sultanates, or ought we change this to the 
> "Mad Satrap"? The speculation that the title Sultan was imported by the 
> Pent Nomads has been contradicted by the information on page 15, where 
> Sylila became a Sultanate already in 1326. Is it Satrapy now? Then why 
> didn't the change make it into Dorastor?

Slipshod or uninformed proof-reading, I say: that 'speculation' you mention 
was found in the Genertela Book, and presumed that we (in the late Seventh 
Wane) were projecting our then-current term backwards into the History. But 
'Satrap' would certainly be appropriate, now that Stafford has repented of 
his earlier misnomer. I believe Sheng was called 'Sultan' by his Pentan 
followers, and the name may have stuck among some outlying peoples. It does 
have a certain evocative ring of Oriental decadence and despotism...

Anyone else find it odd that the Mad Sultan speaks Lunar 'Newspeak' rather 
than classical Carmanian? I suppose it's reasonable; I'd just have liked to 
see his origins exposed.

> Uroxi outside of Prax:
> How do they view their deity? It cannot be the desert storm like in 
> Prax and the Wastelands. How many are there? What is their position in 
> hill barbarian society, are they similar to the berserks in old Norse 
> sagas, a special class of houscarls? (Both Celtic and Viking warlords 
> kept fighters with combat frenzy in their entourage.)

Yeah: berserks is right. We call them "Bullies". Have a look at Poul 
Andersen's retelling of Hrolf Kraki's Saga to see how well they fit.

> Riskland:
> How come the differences between Dragon Pass resettlement described in 
> King of Sartar (in stockades and hillforts wherever possible) and 
> Riskland pioneers (single steads)?

Different cultural influences. Not all 'Orlanthi' are the same. Besides, 
"King of Sartar" focusses on stockades and hillforts as tribal centres; I 
can't recall any mention of either being a clan centre. And the Renekoti 
are just a new clan. Hillforts and stockades might be better than steads, 
but they take a while to build. The Bilini have a tribal centre at The 
Hold, whatever that looks like.

Besides, look what happens to the Risklanders in their isolated steads...

> Why does Vinga (Orlanth Adventurous) replace Flesh Man in the 
> Lightbringers' council? And Lomi Ulrood seems quite respectable
> for a trickster.

"Who's Flesh Man?", chorus the Talastari.

Agreed about Lomi: he was far too sensible at the Thanemeet for my liking. 
Still, he does crack a good joke on p.108. And I wouldn't expect Clan 
Renekoti to have a proper Trickster, yet -- any more than they have a 
proper Vingan!

"Full of himself and his status as Trickster" -- err, what status would 
that be, then, Lomi? Outcast, Outlaw, Nithing? Last Trickster I met spent 
the first half of the scenario either glued to a wagon-seat or nailed into 
a barrel. We treat them proper down in Greydog Village...

See you,

====
Nick
====

-> the Lunar Empire is a means, not an end

---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: Glowline
Message-ID: <9309040149.AA04708@radiomail.net>
Date: 4 Sep 93 01:49:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1537

Is there a better (or more recent) description of the Glowline than in
Cults of Prax? I've heard recently that the Red Moon is visible in
Pamaltela, which contradicts this account.

In Glorantha/Genertela Book, the Tarsh Temple of the Reaching Moon is
completed in 1496; in King of Sartar, it's only started in 1496, and takes
"many years" to complete [124]. Later, Tatius takes 4 years to build his
Temple of the Reaching Moon. Anyone know how long the Tarsh temple took?

David Dunham * Software Designer  *  Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net


---------------------

From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Bloody Jeff
Message-ID: <01H2JWGDBZXU9S8989@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 4 Sep 93 23:43:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1538

G'day All,

Thanks to everyone who pointed out where the reference to Pamaltela's chaos
tending to be single monsters and Genertela's being groups.  I must've read
through the section of the Gloranthan Bestiary with my eyes shut.

I have been very slow in replying to people's mail of late.
I'm sorry that I haven't replied earlier, but things have been very hectic
in my real job: the looney right economic-rationalist state government here
wants to make lots of money by closing hundreds of schools and flogging 
off the real estate.  Unfortunately, the school where I teach is on a main
road and is therefore prime land (forget the fact it has 11 extra classrooms
and is been there 114 years).

If we close, our kids will end up in
porto cabins in the car park of another school nearby.  Somehow I ended up
one of those leading the fight against our closure, which has been taking up
all of my time.  We're doing well so far: front page of the Herald-Sun (the
city's biggest newspaper) and on the TV news a couple of times.  They'll
still probably try to give us the arse, but at least we went down trying!

The final decision is made soon, and then I'll be able to get back to
work on issue #11 and other interesting stuff.  Til then it's Fight the
Good Fight!

Cheers,

MOB


P.S. Our state government leader is Jeff Kennett, also known as "Boof-Head".
If you're one of the thousands of public servants made redundant you call
it "getting jeffed".  There are also bumpers stickers going around saying
"I've had a KENNETT of day".  Though nothing can beat the pure simplicity of
120,000 people at a protest rally chanting "Kennett's a wanker".

---------------------

From: glidedw@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Donald Wilton)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 03 Sep 1993, part 1
Message-ID: 
Date: 3 Sep 93 12:49:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1539

To newton Hughes:

i guess as an atheist that I don't get it. If you don't get somethinf for
joining a cult, (promise of immortality in the hereafter, power, etc.)
why do it?

since in the world you describe, little comes from cults, why join?  If I
choose to become a sorcerer, after learning of spirits and their magic,
then I could learn enough, to do what I want. I see no connection between
obtaining membership, and perhaps a few skills at lower cost. this
mercentaile transaction, while useful if that's all there is, has little
value for me. I usually play Brythini (of course ;>), since religions
under your rules, or any make little sense. Under your rules, they make
less than any normal sense.