From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 07 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
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---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Credo! (a short plug)
Message-ID: <930904091743_100270.337_BHB12-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 4 Sep 93 09:17:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1540
___________
Greg asked:
> And on that line, here's another Gloranthan Lore Q: on page 9 of the
> RQCon registration booklet, the game CREDO! is described thus: "The
> game of dueling doctrines. The focus is historical Christianity, but
> the perceptive might also learn a thing or two about the Elmal/Yelmalio
> schism. Scandalous!" Anyone got some clue as to the meaning of this?
Yup.
CREDO! is a deeply spiritual card game shortly to emerge from Chaosium. It
was designed by my good friend and fellow Grey Sage Chris Gidlow (who folks
from Convulsion 92 may remember as my Royal Librarian). We played it with
Greg Stafford (and several other people) at that Con, and he liked it so
much he decided to produce it himself.
The game is set during the age of the Church Councils of late Antiquity,
where the defining articles of the Christian religion were hammered out in
debate by the assembled Bishops of the Roman Empire. The aim of the game is
to produce a comprehensive Creed; if it includes enough of your sect's
beliefs, you will have a huge Flock of followers and so win the game.
So: is there One God, or Two, or Three? What about Virgin Births? How many
Baptisms? And just what is the Holy Spirit for, anyway? (*I* may know, but
then I have 'Gnosis'). Does it prove your argument if your chief opponent
excretes his own entrails? And what if the Emperor apostatises?
What David meant by "the perceptive might also learn a thing of two about
the Elmal/Yelmalio schism" is almost beyond me. I would hazard a guess that
he's saying the game helps teach how sectarian differences along very minor
fault-lines can have an exaggerated effect, but I wouldn't bet on it. Maybe
he was just trying to get you to play it... if so, cheers, David!
Don't ask me about release dates, prices, etc: I haven't heard from Greg
for a while now. I think the answers are "soon" and "not too much". But
this is a damn' good game (IMHO) -- take this with a pinch of salt, as I
was heavily involved in its development...
Shit! I've answered a non-Glorantha Lore question. Bang goes my rep!
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Glowline and Cult
Message-ID: <930904091818_100270.337_BHB12-3@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 4 Sep 93 09:18:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1541
Typical: you wait all summer for a good Glorantha Lore question, then two
dozen come at once!
__________________
David Dunham asks:
> Is there a better (or more recent) description of the Glowline than
> in Cults of Prax? I've heard recently that the Red Moon is visible in
> Pamaltela, which contradicts this account.
The odd description of the Glowline in Cults of Prax (where the Red Moon
appears on the horizon at the edge of the Glowline) does appear to have
been superceded by subsequent releases. Perhaps the most obvious reason is
that, in occupied Sartar and Prax, nobody is going to have a clue what the
Lunar missionaries are on about if they can't see the Red Moon.
MOONIE: "We worship the almighty Red Moon Goddess, who hangs eternally
in the Middle Air and oversees her ever-reincarnating son's domains."
VICTIM: "Where's that, then?" "Pull the other one!" "I don't see her!"
"This is just like that Malkion rubbish!" "What's a Moon, then?"
... etc.
So if we accept that the Red Moon is visible as far south as Pamaltela, the
question then is, what *visual* difference does the Glowline make to us?
One part's already been covered by Greg: I believe he's said the Glowline
is visible at its border as a curtain of shimmering red light. So the
limits of the Lunar Empire's magical power can actually be seen.
What about the Moon herself? We've been told in past supplements (e.g.
Griffin Mountain) that "inside the Glowline, the Red Moon always appears to
be Full", but I don't like that: it would mean most Lunars wouldn't have
seen the Phases which are so basic to Lunar doctrine and teaching.
PRIESTESS: "Our Goddess passes between Life and Death on a weekly cycle."
INITIATE: "Does she? How can you tell? She always looks the same to me."
... etc.
So I'd assume it's some other lighting effect. Maybe the Red Moon appears
with a crimson moon-ring around it, whatever the phase may be (so at the
Dying and Black Moons, you'd see a corona-like flare above Glamour inside
the Empire, but nothing at all outside). Maybe there's an ambient pinkish
glow of *reflected* moonlight everywhere in the Empire (we know that Yelm
appears less bright in the Lunar Heartland), which is after all enveloped
by the shimmering-red Glowline.
Anyone else have ideas? If we could resolve this, and draw up a map and
timetable of when which phase gets where in the Empire (remembering the
"Searchlight Effect": Black Moon in Sartar is Full Moon in Carmania) and
just how far the Glowline extends, it would be a great day for Gloranthan
studies. Perhaps a good article for Tales: worth a try, David?
> In Glorantha/Genertela Book, the Tarsh Temple of the Reaching Moon is
> completed in 1496; in King of Sartar, it's only started in 1496, and
> takes "many years" to complete [124]. Later, Tatius takes 4 years to
> build his Temple of the Reaching Moon. Anyone know how long the Tarsh
> temple took?
Nope. "Many years" sounds like more than four years, but Tatius was going
all-out to build his Temple; besides, the Lunars had had more practice by
then. Try a Divination to the Creator Gods if you want a definitive answer
(or lack of same). Or propose something I can believe. Seven or fourteen
are good magical numbers.
BTW, anyone else wonder if Sartar Peacemaker met Hon-eel the Artess at any
point? Could be fun for a PenDragon Pass group to sit in on such a historic
encounter: they were both active in the Pass at around the same time. And
the repercussions of their disagreement can be seen all around us today...
____________________
Donald Wilton asked:
> If you don't get something for joining a cult (promise of immortality
> in the hereafter, power, etc.), why do it?
To *belong* in your culture and society. If you're born in Sun County, you
join the Sun Dome Temple. Simple as that. Who gives a flying fuck [*] what
else you get out of it: you can't live there without being a Yelmalion. And
*everybody* wants to live *somewhere*, right? You could always get yourself
thrown out of home:
ME: "No, Father, I don't want to carry a spear in the Sun Dome militia.
I want to ride a Bison and fight Chaos in the Devil's Marsh..."
HE: "You're no son of mine! Get out, and never darken my doorstep again!"
But would the Bison Bullies take you in, young Herbert? Remember, you've
been brought up in a Sun Domer household for the first fifteen years of
your life. You can't chuck away your repressive/patriarchal/fastidious
background and culture *that* easily.
Weird or obsessive types join fringe cults (in Glorantha as elsewhere):
"King of Sartar" p.246 gives us an Orlanthi perspective:
Many other deities are known to the mythology. The bulk of Orlanthi
society considers their initiates to be eccentric, strange, exotic,
or dangerous. Around them normal people are at least curious, perhaps
uncomfortable, if not downright frightened, depending on the deity.
Nonetheless, many of these find devout followers. These deities
include: Issaries, Chalana Arroy, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal, Yinkin, Humakt,
Elmal, Kolating, Urox, Boneman the Smith, and others.
These guys are not "normal" in Orlanthi society, so we feel uneasy around
them. It's impossible to build a society around specialists alone (whether
they be merchants, healers, sages, telephone sanitisers, or whoever). But
it's also hard to run one without them. So if you have a vocation, and
there aren't too many 'professionals' around, you might be able to join
such a cult. But I wouldn't rely on it.
NB: the idea of automatic-initiation through 'hereditary' cult membership
in e.g. Chalana Arroy or Lhankor Mhy strikes me as rather silly: it
probably represents the "Well, Mum's a doctor so I could always do that"
choice of career, but I still think you'd need to show some aptitude to get
in.
Then there's the extra-social or anti-social alternatives, like joining
those Moonie missionaries on the street corners, with their mind-expanding
red berries and smart haircuts. Going for a foreign cult will of course
lose you most of your existing family and friends, so you'd better be
pretty sure these new acquaintances of yours are willing to give Real Power
to someone who's already a proven traitor (the Arkat parallel is too
obvious, here). Against that is the "zeal of the convert" argument: someone
who chooses to belong may be *keener* than someone who was just born into
the cult. But they're going to have to prove it by working real hard.
This is a "social" approach to the question you raise ("Why join cults?").
It's the one I prefer to take myself. There are utilitarian approaches, but
they all stink rather of wanna-be Illuminates or Thanatari to me; one of my
formative experiences was listening in outright disbelief to a fool raving
about how lethal an Illuminated Humakti Vampire would be -- as a PC! That's
the end of the road that you start down by asking, "What's in it for me?"
These days, I try to ask, "What's in it for my wife & kids & neighbours &
friends & tribe & kingdom. And do I get any beer for doing it?"
And, I agree, many PCs are the kind of exceptional characters who do bend
or break the accepted norms of society, join weird fringe cults, make
unlikely allies, and go around doing their own thing. There is, however,
more to Gloranthan religious life than the Way of the Adventurer.
(Though printing the Cult of Ernalda in the Introduction to Glorantha book
still strikes me as a remarkably foolish -- however well-intentioned --
decision! Players *like* joining Humakt, Orlanth, Urox, Yelmalio, Zorak
Zoran. They don't join Grain Goddess cults, as a rule.)
'Nuff said.
====
Nick
====
[*] Gloranthan Lore answer: "A Wind Child".
Pardon my French, if there are any sensitive types on this list.
---------------------
From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
Subject: Sartar setting thing
Message-ID: <9309041633.AA02952@Sun.COM>
Date: 4 Sep 93 16:15:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1542
I made a comment that there should be an introductory book for players
to introduce them to Glorantha, specifically Dragon Pass around the
time of the Lunar invasion, and got a response from Simon Manning
saying, "Please don't say that." Well, here I go saying it again,
but I promise this is the last time.
I like the new info on Pamaltela, Kralorela, Jrustela, etc. as much
as anybody; there is a lot more to Glorantha than just grotty old
Dragon Pass. But what I'm saying is you've got to start somewhere,
and the most logical point to introduce beginners is at the place
where most of us started a long time ago.
Remember I'm talking about introducing new people who don't have
your sophisticated knowledge of Glorantha. What makes more sense,
starting a new character in Sartar just before or after the invasion
and having the character experience the devastation first hand, or
doing what River of Cradles does, and tell the character, Well, your
family is a bunch of refugees who were dispossessed a dozen years
ago? I see it as the old "show versus tell" English 101 thing.
Being caught up in a disaster first hand and seeing the Lunar Empire
at its worst is a lot different than seeing the Empire in a much
more ambiguous role (in 1620's Prax, for instance).
Enough from me. Nobody has an answer/opinion/comment to my Pavis
Garden question?
nh
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily Sat 04 Sep 1993 part 1
Message-ID: <9309041708.AA11707@radiomail.net>
Date: 4 Sep 93 17:08:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1543
>From: malcolm@num-alg-grp.co.uk (Malcolm Cohen)
>David Dunham says:
>> combat, why not start a new discussion on how people handle large (PCs
>> outnumbered, perhaps by up to 2:1) melees with the existing rules?
>
>Easily; just prepare hitloc sheets (you remember FOES, do you not?). This
>really is not much of a problem.
I'm sorry, but it is. (Actually, I was using Chaosium RQ2 material, which
had all the hit locations, in the same layout as FOES.) I guess I was
hoping for something I hadn't thought of. It just seemed like I was taking
too long to record all the damage accurately.
>And I personally think this sort of rulequest discussion
I'm not asking for rules, but techniques in applying the rules. I know not
all people handle strike ranks the same way -- some people count down, I
believe it's faster to go pair-of-combatants by pair-of-combatants. Maybe
there's another approach?
>There are such things as niche markets you know. That is what RQ has always
>been.
But is it a _profitable_ niche market? After all, gaming in general is a
pretty small niche.
>I found RQ3 sorcery next to unusable (to GM) at low levels. I
>daresay several of my players at these low levels found it unusable as well
>(they certainly bitched loudly enough!).
Ah, low levels unusable -- a concrete complaint. I have the impression that
accurately models Gloranthan cultures, however. And given that specialists
are the most powerful, it seems reasonable that normal sorcery users were
the least powerful.
David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net