Bell Digest v930916p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 16 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
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Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: Attracting players; Lunar features
Message-ID: <199309150712.AA00951@radiomail.net>
Date: 15 Sep 93 07:11:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1684

>glidedw@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Donald Wilton)
>with ads that state "Go to the
>mythological source of yourself! 

I'm afraid that would scare me off! I first liked Glorantha because it was
Bronze Age, not because of the myths. (And I certainly don't feel
comfortable running such a game. I'm not a shaman [practitioner of applied
mythology].)

But I do like the idea of each of us spreading the game, however works best.

>From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
>Are features of the (red) moon visible from the surface, 
>or is it just a glowing red orb?

It has the spider-web-like craters as seen on the cover of Gods of Glorantha.

David Dunham * Software Designer  *  Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net


---------------------

From: MAB@SAVAX750.RUTHERFORD.AC.UK (Mystic Musk Ox)
Subject: InfraVision and Wood
Message-ID: <9309150817.AA27133@Sun.COM>
Date: 15 Sep 93 08:16:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1685

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK

>In DnD the eyes of a creature using infravision glow in the dark!
>I assume this is because they are emmitting InfraRed Visions!  

Yes, this has always amused me, because if the eyes are picking up
infrared, AND emitting it, then they would soon be at the same temperature
for detection as for emission. Result = no vision at all!
Of course, as "it's magic" you can always argue that this is not the
case here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Here are some uses for the bits of beasties that you mentioned:
 .
 .
>When you are reading the above remember that wood is very scare in Prax so 
>that other materials are generally used were we would use it.  

This reminded me of talking to a friend of mine some years ago who had spent
some time with Inuit tribes (eskimos) on Baffin Island. Their original
culture was based very much on the fact that there is a severe lack of
wood in the area, the result being that they used bone for many items.
In particular I remember one story from the 1800's, when a ship ran
aground. Most of the tribes in the area trekked a LONG way (something on
the order of 300 miles, plus crossing bits of sea) every year to scavenge
wood from the wreckage. This makes me wonder if perhaps there might
be closer parallels here with Inuit than the conventional view of American
Indians (I think Inuit *are* American Indians, still you know what I mean),
somewhere like Baffin Island may be a closer approximation to the Wastes.

Another thing I remember, he spent some time with the hunters, and said
that basically they were all very quiet, reflective types - very non-
extrovert, and certainly not the sort to boast about their deeds.

Sorry, I don't know any more! But I guess there must be some good
anthropological books around (anyone got any good references?).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Buckley
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: more on spirits
Message-ID: 
Date: 15 Sep 93 08:29:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1686

Greg Fried here.

Newton is opposed to complicated the spirit combat rules.  I did give a way
to speed this up a few postings ago.  BUt I still think we can have optional
rules appended to more simple ones.  This seems a likely corrolary to making
the spirit realm a tad more interesting.  James Wadsley shrewdly notes that
'spiritual' weapons may end up looking like D&D psionics (ego blast and such
twaddle) -- I thought of that too, and hoped no one would make the
connection!  Still, I think we could do better than a pale reflection of
'psionics'.  CW asks for more ideas.... Er....Ummmmm......  I wish I had
some!!!  I think this would take some very serious thought, and I don't have
the time, sadly.  I would NOT have INT vs INT, for example, whittling each
other down, as is now the case with POW vs POW.  Instead, I would allow for a
one-time attack (say, to Overawe, via CHA), but have this predicated on
having already succeeded in a POW vs POW role.  In other words, it would be
something you could attempt INSTEAD of depleting the enemy's POW.  OK, here's
an idea for some spirit'weapons': 
Confuse (INT vs INT): works like Befuddle, but effects can be specified.
OVerawe (CHA vs CHA): works like Glamour, but with an effect of implanting a 
   suggestion.
Charm (CHA vs INT): kinda like the D&D spell (duckking eggs!!!)
Scare (POW vs INT): effect like Demoralize.
  These are just off the top of my head.  (A bit too much like what you
feared, James?!)
  So, for example, the way it might work is that, say, the discorporate
shaman Piggy-O (INT 18, POW 18, CHA 13) attacks Norbert (12, 13, 10) in
spirit combat.  She wins in the POW vs POW roll, and decides that instead of
damaging Norbert's POW, she's just going to give him a good scare.  She needs
to roll under 80 on the res. table (18 

---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: did it again!
Message-ID: 
Date: 15 Sep 93 08:44:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1687


Greg here, cut meself off again!

Anyway, she needs to roll 80 and under (18 POW vs 12 INT); she gets a 23 and
Norbert runs screaming into the night at the sight of her disembodied spirit.

How's that for starters?  Any other idea on spiritual weapons?  I'd say only
shamans and certain spirits can learn them.
===
David Dunham:
Are you sure that Lhankor Mhy are philosophers?  They seem more like
information collectors to me.  Some few of them might be philosophers, but no
more than in many other cults; mostly, they are just scholars and bookworms.
===
Tom Zunder:
Glorantha patriarchal?  It depends where the REAL rule lies....  Ask the Red
Moon!  Ask Kygor Litor.  Ask Arachne Solara.  Better yet, don't -- they'll
groin ya!
===
Nick:
Thanks for appreciating my little bon mot.  If you or anyone else would like
to see my Sticks and SHamanism adventure, Atek's Ghost, it is still available
by e-mail.  Just wirte to me personally and I'll send it -- all for the
greater glory of RQ.  Best suited for converting newbies.

GF out.

---------------------

From: steve@psycho.demon.co.uk (Steve Thomas)
Subject: Things that are not what they seem.
Message-ID: <12@psycho.demon.co.uk>
Date: 15 Sep 93 11:42:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1688

TO:	RQDIGEST, INTERNET:RUNEQUEST@GLORANTHA.HOLLAND.SUN.COM

Re:	That which is not what it seems. 

Clay Luthor writes:
--------------------------
>First, we don't know how much the GLs changed Issaries (I think not very
>much at all) and, second, history proves that myth is highly mutable.  By your
>very argument, the changes wrought on Issaries by the GLs several hundred
>years ago may have themselves changed back by now.  

No no and again no! I don't believe that changes just change themselves 
(at least, not since the great compromise). Mythology can be changed by 
heroquesters, but these are changes to the stuff of reality itself (which 
even the gods are made of) and it doesn't then spring back into its natural 
shape. Such changes are irrevocable (although you could try and heroquest 
again so as to make it more like what you think it used to be). This is
a very good reason for being terrified of heroquesters in general, and the 
GL's in particular.  

>Certainly avatars of the god existed at the fringe of the GL influence...

What is a god's "avatar" in a Gloranthan sense ? Some kind of super 
cult spirit watching over the cult? If they're spirits they're probably too 
weak, if gods, then their hands are tied by the Compromise. Anyway
I think that 'certainly' is deeply overstating the case.
 
>But I disagree with your assumption that the GLs could whole-heartedly change
>the myth without leaving some stamp.  History proves that this cannot be
>done.  Changes to myths always leave artifacts and questions. 

First off, what about Caladra and Aurelion? Their worshippers don't hang
about in corners muttering darkly about GL interference. Indeed, nor did
anyone else until the cult writeup was available to those of us with the
RuneQuest Sight in Tales #7.

Second, most heroquests take place in pre-history, indeed pre-time, where
contradictions are the norm and questions are their own answers. Who can
say what 'was' true 'then'.
 
>If the Jrusteli were such powerful mythmagicians that they could alter the 
>myth without detection, where do the contradictions come from?  

Some GL experiments worked, some failed, some were unfinished, and
some were incompetent. Some certainly left contradictions and artifacts
behind for scholars to bicker over. But that certainly doesn't prove that they 
all did. Nor does it prove that Issaries isn't a GL construct. It doesn't 
prove that it is, either, but if Tradetalk *was* invented by the GL's and 
even speaking it might bring them back, can you afford to take the chance? 

>It only proves the Jrusteli were mere tinkerers and tricksters, incapable of 
>true recreation. 

Agreed.


On the subject of what nomads eat
-------------------------------------------------

I seem to recall that one of the nomadic African tribes (don't remember which 
one) used to open the veins in the neck of their cattle and extract the blood
to drink. Lots of vit's min's and protein in blood. A bit hard to do with a rhino 
mind you.

Steve

"The more things change, the more they remain the same." - Lau Tzu (I think)
"The more things change, the more they remain the same." - Lau Tzu (I think)

---------------------

From: jackal@eta.pha.jhu.edu (Philip Hammar x8530)
Subject: Re: RGB/CMYK
Message-ID: <9309151220.AA04381@eta.pha.jhu.edu>
Date: 15 Sep 93 04:20:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1689

> From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
> X-RQ-ID: 1683
> 
> 
> Many moons ago ( sorry - I mean back in the spring ) this debate was going
> for a bit. There are two popular color models: RGB and CMY.
> 
> To make "white", RGB is additive, while CMY is subtractive. 


	While I like the idea of the green moon returning to set
things right, there is no problem with CMY being an additive system.
What make the difference is the reproduction technology.  Inks,
crayon, and chalk are subtractive color systems while phosphors and
filters with a "white" light source are additive.  If you could find
phosphors which emitted light at the same frequncy where the CMY inks
reflected it, you could have a additive CMY system for your TV.


			Have a good one,
			Phil

Philip Hammar, Graduate Student		Internet: jackal@eta.pha.jhu.edu
Dept of Phys & Astro at Johns Hopkins	Phone: (410)516-7866
You've entered another dimension; a dimension of heat and flame.
You've entered USENET.



---------------------

From: JLROGERS@utkvx.utk.edu (Jim Rogers)
Subject: New Recruits
Message-ID: <01H2Z141JC8I8ZJJ1W@utkvx.utk.edu>
Date: 15 Sep 93 06:00:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1690

Jim Rogers here

X-RQ-ID: 1632  Chris Cooke

	Chris, I don't know what I did to get special mention, but I'll
take the credit.  I will, of course, be glad to give all sorts of wanted
and unwanted advice, opinion, ideas, et al. at your request.  Also, I'd
like to encourage your input to the Daily, since we all need to keep a more
holistic view of the RQ world, and the myth can pile a bit deep here (not
that I can't enjoy it!)

	For my first piece of unsolicited advice, I like your view of
converting the unwashed with a low-myth beginning.  Then _you_ get to use
the myths to hook the players into plots.  The more the players interact
with the mythic aspect of Glorantha, the more they get drawn into the
world.  And, it's a never-ending process, as they append more myth to their
characters lives to give rationale for actions, etc.
	I think that the RQ mechanics might seem complicated at first
(especially character creation), but you realize that the _play_ is no more
complicated than that other game.  The real benefit of RQ mechanics is
reality in combat, and the versatility of characters: RQ allows anyone to
be anything they want.  It might take some time, and might not be easy, and
you might end up dead before you get there.  No artificial class
limitations!  The best hook for character development is in the cults.  I'd
shy away from shamans and sorcerors-as-professionals (as opposed to
Hrestoli-type warriors with sorcery instead of cultic magic) if at all
possible in the beginning.  Later campaigns, or even as the campaign itself
develops.  The cults give the characters a broad-based sense of mythic identity
that they can build on with their own personality and socio-economic identity
from clan, town, etc.  Note that I agree that all Uroxi don't have to be
dirty, rude, vulgar, physical types - these would seem to evolve from
character identity, not cultic/mythic identity.  The Urox myth gives them a
powerful sense of moral correctness (no chaos!), and how to deal with
incorrect situations (destroy!).  Simplistic, perhaps, but lots of room for
differences between Sartari and Praxian, town and waste, extroverted and 
introverted Uroxi characters.

	This is plenty long enough, I'm sure.  I'm also sure that I've
echoed others' thoughts, so now unique wisdom accrues to the above. 
Perhaps collective wisdom?

			Jim R.


---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Searchlight on Rinliddi
Message-ID: <930915100147_100270.337_BHB53-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 15 Sep 93 10:01:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1691

_____________
Newton wrote:

> If you hold to the searchlight theory, you lose the symbolic
> correspondence between days and phases.

"Searchlight theory"? It's what the rules say --

   The Red Moon is unique because it never moves, day or night, from
   its place in the northwestern sky. Of all heavenly bodies, only it
   is visible all day while the sun shines. Day and night the visible
   face of the moon is either bright red, black, or both. At full moon
   it is completely bright red. As its phases progress the red shrinks,
   replaced by darkness creeping around it. The crescent of darkness
   grows to cover half the moon, then three quarters, until the last
   bit of light disappears. When black, the moon is visible in daytime,
   though not at night. It remains black for two days, when the red
   light creeps in again and grows to full. The entire cycle takes
   seven days and nights. However, this change of phases is not the
   same across all Glorantha: while one place is experiencing a
   Crescent, another sees the Black Phase. The Red Moon is said to be
   the body of the goddess worshipped by the citizens of the Lunar Empire.

	- source: Secrets Book, p.46

Prior to that, I agree, there had been nothing to suggest the days and 
phases weren't the same everywhere. Now, though, we get movable Lunar 
feast-days -- which fits the religious experience of our world (consider 
Easter and Ramadan), to contrast with those fixed Solar worship ceremonies. 
I agree, it makes for more work. But it's a bit more plausible, too (as now 
the Red Moon's rotation can be understood). The only existing "symbolic 
correspondence between days and phases" is surely Wildday = Full Moon, 
which is what we Sartarites know about the Telmori and the Birth of the 
Goddess. The others don't make much sense, otherwise:

						DRAGON PASS/
   LUNAR PHASE		MOTHER'S DAY		FIXED DAYS
   -----------		------------		
----------	
   Crescent-Going	Irrippi Ontor		Freezeday
   Dying Moon		Danfive Xaron		Waterday
   Black Moon		Jakaleel the Witch	Clayday
   Crescent-Coming	Teelo Norri		Windsday
   Empty Half		Queen Deezola		Fireday
   Full Moon		Red Goddess		Wildday
   Full Half		Yanafal Tarnils		Godsday

A "symbolic correspondence" would surely have the Dying or Black Moons on 
Freezeday or Windsday, and Deezola's or Teelo's ceremony on Clayday. I see 
no correlations at all in the table above. If anyone does, please tell me! 
But this seems to be an argument for the "floating calendar" -- find a part 
of the world where the Black Moon is on Freezeday, and you've probably 
found a Jakaleel cult centre... (would be 2/7 x 360 degrees 
counterclockwise from Dragon Pass: hmm... gets out map and protractor... 
that takes me roughly to First Blessed, where it all began!)

In fact, if this is so, we'd have:

   LUNAR PHASE		MOTHER'S DAY		FIRST BLESSED
   -----------		------------		-------------
   Black Moon		Jakaleel the Witch	Freezeday
   Crescent-Coming	Teelo Norri		Waterday
   Empty Half		Queen Deezola		Clayday
   Full Moon		Red Goddess		Windsday
   Full Half		Yanafal Tarnils		Fireday
   Crescent-Going	Irrippi Ontor		Wildday
   Dying Moon		Danfive Xaron		Godsday

And those make *loads* of sense to me! So I am now a fervent convert to the 
Roving Searchlight Theory of the Lunar Way! Thanks a lot for asking the 
question, Newton, as I only discovered this now when addressing myself to 
your concerns. Hope others out there can see the beauty of this system: if 
not, ask, and I'll try to explain them.

___________
John asked:

> Were there seven of us who asked the questions which brought Nick
> back into the world?

Did you have to go through Hell to do it??

> Are features of the (red) moon visible from the surface, or is it 
> just a glowing red orb?

Have a look at the Tom Sullivan cover to Gods of Glorantha, the Reaching 
Moon Megacorp logo, and Dan Barker's Lunar pics in Tales passim. These are 
as accurate as they get. Other features have been mentioned: Sheng Seleris 
and the defenders of Boldhome both scarred the face of the Moon.

____________________
Clay Luther thought:

> We don't know how much the GLs changed Issaries (I think not very
> much at all) ... I doubt the GLs affected the cult much anyway

Hang on: we are talking here about the cult responsible for the twin 
abominations of Tradetalk and Spell Trading, which even confesses in its 
write-up that "the great Middle Sea Empire of the Second Age depended on 
{Issaries cult mercantile networks}"                         ^^^^^^^^ ^^

And you think the God Learners could keep their hands off it? That's faith!

> If the Jrusteli were such powerful mythmagicians that they could alter 
> the myth without detection, where do the contradictions come from?

The Jrusteli monomyth was intended to iron out the contradictions in 
mythology. Thus a myth without contradictions is ipso facto likely to be a 
Jrusteli construct. Note that Greg's recent, non-God Learner work contains 
contradictions -- revels in them! -- while his early, GL-inspired work, 
does its best to systematize everything into a unified whole.
	{And if you thought KoS was dense, you ain't seen nothin' yet!}

The natural, untampered-with forms of Issaries would be the "cults" of 
Harst 'Spare Grain', Garzeen 'Middleman' and Goldentongue 'Trader Prince', 
each of whom has a separate mythology and a sensible niche in the world and 
society. The Jrusteli then decided that these were all sons of one god 
(unknown to the original worshippers of Harst, Garzeen, Goldentongue, which 
likewise would not have recognised each other as "brother cults"), and this 
god was determined to have been Issaries, the Orlanthi barbarian god of 
travellers and storytellers. Or something like that...

So they all get conflated, and then the God Learners bolt on the extra 
things they *want* their cult to be able to do -- like having a language 
which can talk to everyone [que?], swapping magical powers [eh?], etc. None 
of which make any real sense to the world, but both of which the God 
Learners would love to do.

Re: Market spells. What happens if an angry Boldhome housewife (carrying a 
rolling pin) goes looking for her errant husband who's chatting up the 
pretty flower-seller in the Issaries Market? WHAM! -- she takes 6D3 damage 
for "attempting to enter the zone with intentions of harm", and *dies*!

Stuff the Chalana Arroy associated-spell problem -- this is too bloody 
dangerous! Market spells cannot be allowed to do damage, under any circs!

___________________
David Dunham noted:

> So, where in Glorantha would you find Plato's Philosopher Kings? No, 
> not the civilized Lunar Empire. Try barbarian Sartar!

Nice to be appreciated... shame you couldn't mention me by name.

	- T.

---------------------

From: wadsley@chipmunk.cita.utoronto.ca
Subject: GL changing Issaries...
Message-ID: <9309151449.AA15957@hawk.cita.utoronto.ca>
Date: 15 Sep 93 14:49:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1692

Clay says a lot against Steve Thomas ideas on GL changing Issaries.

I think his arguement is flawed. According to my understanding, Issaries
can not reach from before Time to reassert himself and the original
conception of his cult. All changes to mythology
perpetrated from travellers from within time are permanent until someone
goes back and changes them again ( as Steve said ). There is no natural
statis or stability in Glorantha - it's mythology is in a state of flux.
The 'avatars' of Issaries present ( assuming they weren't GL ) would
be affected by the changes to Issaries - they are not immune. I don't
doubt worshipers could detect something gone wrong, but they would have to
reach far back to the first GL changes and reassert the original myth. 
In fact - they could only reassert their own conception of the myth which
would be subject to the GL changes. As far as I am aware it is impossible
to full correct such changes. Look at the Curse of Kin. All those
humungoid Mistress Race trolls have no doubt heroquested like mad
in attempts to restore Kyger Litor to her former fecundity.

Whether or not GL's have imagination or are undetectable is irrelevant.
I think they had some imagination but where wiped out before they
could do anything _too_ imaginative. It was pointed out that Issaries
does have a fair amount of GL flavour ( a good article IMHO ). In my
opinion centuries of Orlanthi/Barbarian worship ( and heroquesting? )
would act to restore or give Issaries an Orlanthi/Barbarian flavour -
but not in the same form it originally had. I suppose this is my point:
I think it's impossible to correct God-damage, you can only patch it up.

I think the confusion aspect of GL changes is due to the nature of
the change. If you swap the roles of two gods - of course people
will be confused. If you massage a cult a bit then I don't think
it will be so noticable. IMHO all worshipers modify their gods
whether they want to or not.

James Wadsley.