Bell Digest v930918p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 18 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
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Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: I heard the tundering hooves of a 1000 battle sheep....
Message-ID: 
Date: 17 Sep 93 08:58:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1722

Sheep don't make good battle mounts, eh?  You ever read the Lampoon's satire,
"Bored of the Rings"?  There, the Rohirim ride savage, battle trained bull
merinos, more deadly than the fearsome riders themselves.  Wish I had a copy,
I'd quote you a few lines.  I do remember the Boggie (Hobbit) eating song, in
part:

We Boggies are a merry folk
Who love to eat until we choke
Loving all like friend and brother
And hardly ever eat each other

Sing!
Gobble gobble, gobble gobble!
Gobble gobble, gobble gobble!

Talking ducks?  Walking octopi?  Is there no room for sheep mounts in
Glorantha?
===
Spirit Combat:
Well, I'm kinda stumped on this. I really think that it requires more thought
on what the spirit plane and spirits ARE first....  If anyone is interested
in one book I have liked on this topic, try Mircea Eliade's "Shamanism:
Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy"(Princeton U Press).
===
Well, I'm off to GM for my players this weekend.  THe poor naive saps are off
on a volcano hunt (loyal Lodrilites that they are), and I'm gonna throw a
troll war band at 'em, led by a Himile priest and accompanied by a Hollri. 
Heh heh heh!  ANd these guys have never even fought trolls before -- except
in a bar brawl.

GF out.

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Nick of Time
Message-ID: <930917091203_100270.337_BHB30-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Sep 93 09:12:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1723

___________
john asked:

> Moon boats were discussed a while back, but I don't remember numbers 
> being discussed. How common are these things? Are they reserved for
> official business, or may noble or otherwise high-ranking individuals 
> have access to them? Do they actually have sail-like structures, or 
> maybe an intangible illusion of a sail where the sail would be?

Make up your own answers to suit the scenario. We know they were used for 
ferrying troops and for the imperial courier service, so there must be a 
fair number of them with a significant carrying capacity. If you take my 
interpretation of how they are propelled, there would be almost none 
outside the Glowline (except in Arrolia, where they seem to be something of 
a fad!).

"Official business" in the Empire is also the private business of Lunar 
nobles; the satraps maintain private (Imperial) armies, and perhaps have 
access to private (Imperial) Moon Boats as well. Read the younger Pliny's 
letters to the emperor Trajan re: private use of Imperial courier ships, 
and extrapolate from that.

I liked my original moon-rune-balloons, but a bulging circular sail would 
look much the same... I hope they have some kind of sail structure, or they 
wouldn't remind people of boats.

> Dart wars: the tradition has included arena-style combats before, but 
> is that still the case?

The arenas are still there, and are still used, but normally for non-dart 
war public entertainments. If you want to challenge the vile Satrap of 
Rinliddi to one-on-one arena combat, I think you'll find out the answer to 
your second question. But I imagine two noble Yanafali could have it out in 
a public arena-duel; the winner might even get prize money from the 
organisers/promoters...

> Are these wars to be semi-formally declared before they are started 
> (our impression), or is the first "surfeit" of seafood a acceptable
> declaration of war?

Read "Dune", and take that as your model. Noble Duke Leto still goes to the 
trouble of formally declaring his vendettas; the upwardly-mobile Harkonnen 
think he's a silly old fool for doing so. Are your nobles from the ancient 
Dara Happan nobility, or more recent Lunar arrivistes? Their attitudes will 
be shaped by such considerations... and by the tacit consent or dissent of 
the Red Emperor (who can always waive his own rules, or come down hard on 
his enemies' missteps).

> Regarding the moon's "craters" being spiderweb-like lines: so these 
> are like the "canals" believed to have been on Mars? Are these folds 
> in her cloak as she gathered it around her? Wrinkles of age as her 
> empire grew and settled? Lines of worry?

Keep asking... the Lunars are, too. Genertela Book, p.31:

   Some people in the Empire claim impending doom. They point out that the
   war in the south continues, despite continuing claims to have conquered
   all resistance. The Redland pioneers report that nomads have come among
   them trading and raiding, and that the horsemen have never heard of the
   Nights of Horror, or any treaties based on it. Count Kaufan Destrino in
   the West Reaches predicts impending doom when the Syndics Ban again
   opens the western borders. Reformers claim widespread moral laxity,
   scholars decry a fall in education and experimentation, and priests
   worry because their attendance is growing but funds are falling. Other
   prophets claim impending transformation, pointing to the growing numbers
   of initiates to the Red Goddess, enlightened individuals, and increased
   dreams about the White Moon, whose coming will inaugurate a new peace
   for the cosmos.

See, with the priesthood of the Red Moon all being illuminated teachers and 
relativistic philosophers, you can't trust what they tell you about the 
most important aspects of their deity. So I'd keep that doubt and/or 
scepticism going as to what the moon lines signify. People in the Empire 
have divergent enough views about many other subjects: optimists say 
"cosmic designs", pessimists say "worry lines", White Moonies hope the 
cracks will spread and she'll be all-white some day...

Hope this has helped. Most of the above is my own opinion, for what that's 
worth, so you can take it or leave it.

Shame about your shift-key breaking!

====
Nick
====

Who controls the past, controls the future.
Who controls the present, controls the past.
	- Irrippi Ontor dictum.

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: The Masks of God
Message-ID: <930917091238_100270.337_BHB30-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Sep 93 09:12:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1724

Clay Luther writes a damn' fine piece of fiction, IMHO!
I enjoyed it a lot: well-written and intriguing.
Wish I could write this well...
More of the same, please!

____________
Loren wrote:

> I wanted to find out if the god that was worshipped under a name in
> one place necessarily had to be identical to the god that was wor-
> shipped under the same name elsewhere, and how identical it might be...

Hey, so did I! Except that 'cos I'd started out by knocking the Cult of 
Orlanth as "about as useful a concept as the Cult of Dyaus-Pitar", I got a 
real-world answer about priests of Jupiter, Zeus, etc. What Greg said to 
me:

| I love sneering "The Cult of Dyaus-Pitar" as a comparison. But if I
| can push that comparison a little bit to help: a worshipper of Zeus
| could go to a Temple of Jupiter, and probably get the majority of his
| rune spells back there. He could go to a temple of Indra, and get some
| too. But only the broadest type of spells, like Thunder and Rain, and
| some of the royal prerogative spells. But he couldn't go to a temple
| of Typhon/Set and get a spell, even though it is a storm god. Just too
| different.

Now that means that you got more from it than I did, 'cos you asked the 
Gloranthan Question. But I'm not sure we should ask about "the god that was 
worshipped under the same name elsewhere."  It begs the question...     
^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^
Y'know, it's like the self-centred way that some early Christians used to 
say all pagan religion had prefigured their own myths. Or the Conquistadors 
saying that Aztec religion was a diabolical parody of Christianity. Or (my 
favourite) good old Herodotus, the Father of History and a *fascinating* 
author, writing about the gods worshipped by foreigners:

: "The only gods the Scythians worship are Hestia (their chief deity),
: Zeus, and Earth (whom they believe to be the wife of Zeus), and, as
: deities of secondary importance, Apollo, Celestial Aphrodite, Heracles,
: and Ares. These are recognized by the entire nation; the Royal Scythians
: also offer sacrifice to Poseidon. In the Scythian language, Hestia is
: *Tabiti*, Zeus (very properly, in my opinion) *Papaeus*, Earth *Api*,
: Apollo *Oetosyrus*, Aphrodite *Argimpasa*, Poseidon *Thagimasidas*."

If the Scythians could recognise their religion in this, I'd be surprised! 
But that's probably what we RuneQuesters are doing when we blandly label 
any storm-worshipping barbarian folk as "Orlanthi" or sun-worshipping 
civilised folk as "Yelmic". We have these oh-so-dandy name-labels that we 
can slap onto the different deities and make them appear very cohesive 
indeed.

Sometimes the similarities are real: there was a common Orlanthi root 
culture thousands of years ago that spread over all Genertela. Sometimes 
they're due to cross-cultural pollination (lots of this in the Pelorian 
Mythology we're working on at the moment). But writing up the "Orlanthi 
Religion" is like writing up "Cults of the Indo-Europeans": an academic, 
not a practical exercise. (But a *very* interesting academic one: anyone 
else on this list a fan of Dumezil?)

I'm not sure that there is (or should be) a *certain* way of finding out 
whether two gods are one and the same (i.e. via a HeroQuest, or any cult 
secret other than the discredited RuneQuest Sight). As with those virtuous 
Arkati Illuminates, you get more fun out of the doubts and uncertainties.

Note that (per KoS p.246) at rituals, while a lay member can "watch what is 
going on, they never participate in the magic, and never get to see 
anything other than the mundane results of the rites." Unless you're a God 
Learner, you'd have to become an initiate of the cult (and obtain your own 
personal connection to the god worshipped) in order to "see him" through a 
worship service; even then, how would you know if he was the same guy or 
not? {see below for more}

> Would she be able to get a divine spell back from Uleria? Greg said
> yes, she would. The two temples would tell radically different
> versions of Uleria's myths and the two goddesses would appear almost
> completely dissimilar, yet they both connect to the same divine source.

That's more or less where I got to with him. But in Glorantha, Uleria is 
certainly *the* most omnipresent goddess imaginable, so I don't know about 
the practical applicability of this. I tried Greg on a Wenelian worshipper 
of the Boar God trying to renew his Berserk spells in a Storm Bull temple; 
and there, he said,

| He *might* be able to get his berserker spell at a Storm Bull temple.
| But probably not. This is not an archetypal function: it is a specific
| function. The fact that both are berserkers is not enough to link them.
| But of course, if the priests were smart, maybe did some heroquesting
| to discover/make links, then your boar guys might be recognized as
| Storm Bull the Boar!

Continuing from above: if one Wenelian says, "I think that Storm Bull god 
you hear so many people talking about is probably just a foreign way of 
worshipping the Great Boar", and he becomes a Storm Bull initiate to find 
out, is he discovering a link that already existed, or making a link that 
never was, before? He takes his belief with him into the cult; at the 
rituals, he'll try to "see through" the bull-horns and bull-masks the 
cultists are wearing and look for similarities with his own tusky stuff.

He could succeed (in mundane terms): he could convince himself that he's 
right. He could perhaps succeed (in a HeroQuest): he could definitively 
"discover" that the two gods are the same (of course, this is a personal 
religious experience, thus not definitive in any global sense). He might 
even become a cult hero, if he can find a way of showing anyone else what 
he's learned, and have them believe him. Then the Boar Cult will get 
stories of how their god gored the Devil, and go on to higher and better 
things.

> Using this theory the easiest way to define an avatar is as a mask of
> a god, which has access to the true form of the god, but which is not
> the true form of the god. Usually, this means that the version of the
> god that we worship is obviously the true god...

This is nicely put. We know that we worship God properly: we know stories 
about him that other people don't tell as well; our statue looks more like 
him; the weapon he carries is different; our Thunderer's voice is more 
booming and resonant...

> They can't be all that different because our temples work just like
> theirs...

Or, at least, very similarly. We have different subcult shrines, different 
associate cults, maybe even slightly different Spirit and Rune magic. 
Within a rules framework, some things can easily be "bent" to differentiate 
between local temples. I'd encourage this, to get people thinking.

> Every worship service is a heroquest, and such worship slowly changes 
> the mythic landscape for a particular locale or bloodline. Thus tradi-
> tions develop and diverge, so that people worship differently in diff-
> erent places...

YES! YES! You are *so* right in what you say. Hurrah for common sense!

> If a myth is extremely consistent across a huge range of lands and 
> cultures then it's almost sure proof of powerful, and RECENT, God 
> Learner style meddling, or at best a well-organized mythic mainten- 
> ance squad within the cult, which is still pretty darn scary.

Yup. Best modern example is the Lunar Empire: p.d.s. to me!

Back to what Greg said about archetypal v. specific functions. If we want a 
single, simple, Gloranthan way of applying this stuff, it could be to draw 
a distinction between the Greater Gods (Rune-owners) and all the other 
ones. All gods with the Storm Rune are, in some ways, similar to Orlanth, 
because Orlanth has "made that Rune his own". So the Great Big Gods are the 
primal archetypes; the smaller ones are spin-offs and local variants (as we 
would expect).

A god who kicks in Chaos (the Bull) and a god who kicks in people who upset 
the Women of the Woods (the Boar) aren't *quite* the same, but researching 
their origins is too God Learner-ish a thing for me to want to do right 
now.

End story: there is as much mythical divergence in Glorantha as in the real 
world. Some things change, some stay the same. God Learners and others can 
muck around with existing myths, build new ones, recognise common themes, 
etc. But the historical trend is broadly towards evolution to meet local 
needs, and divergence from common origins.

Unplayable, I know.

Feedback, please!

====
Nick
====

"After all, Zeus the Werewolf was still Zeus."
-- Greg Stafford

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Lines on the Moon
Message-ID: <930917104929_100270.337_BHB61-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Sep 93 10:49:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1725

The Grey Sage Cerulli of Syran writes:

	"Much ink has been wasted recently on the subject of the so-called 
'lines', 'webs' or 'canals' criss-crossing the face of the Red Moon. This 
absurd notion is a pure Illusion, as one would expect given the subject of 
the observations. The so-called 'moon-lines' are merely anomolies created 
by the tendency of the eye and brain to combine diverse markings -- the 
great Lunar craters, those scars left by Sheng Seleris and others on the 
face of the Red Goddess -- into well-defined features.

	"Given sufficiently accurate astronomical apparatus, made according 
to the same principles as my spectacles here, distant objects can be seen 
as if they were close at hand. I appeal to the Glass-Grinders' Guild to 
support my further researches in this direction (and, as a first step, to 
replace the 'lenses' broken last week when I inadvertently collided with a 
poorly located building).

	"Thus is shown how True Knowledge can banish dangerous and 
heretical notions (e.g: that the Red Moon is a Spider's silk-wrapped Egg; 
that written upon the Moon are words in the Language of the Gods; that 
there is a network of Silver Roads on the Moon, where the elect of the 
Goddess walk between her many mansions). There is no writing on the Moon: 
there are no lines, webs, or canals thereon: all is flat, barren and sere, 
just as there is no Truth or Salvation in the Lunar Way. To believe 
otherwise is akin to belief in Moon-Elves, blue-skinned men, or the 
legendary Flying People of fabled Dragon Pass: arrant and nonsensical 
folly.

	"May the Light of Wisdom bless and protect this True Record."

---------------------

From: henkl@holland.sun.com (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: The Masks of God
Message-ID: <1993Sep17.115534.3213@holland.sun.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 11:55:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1726

Paraphrasing:

Loren and Nick discuss the possibilities of Uleria worshippers
to take part in ceremonies in remote temples, and the chances of
a Wenelian Boar cultist taking part of (and merging with)
Storm Bull worship.  Authorative quotes from Greg Stafford included.

>Continuing from above: if one Wenelian says, "I think that Storm Bull god 
>you hear so many people talking about is probably just a foreign way of 
>worshipping the Great Boar", and he becomes a Storm Bull initiate to find 
>out, is he discovering a link that already existed, or making a link that 
>never was, before? He takes his belief with him into the cult; at the 
>rituals, he'll try to "see through" the bull-horns and bull-masks the 
>cultists are wearing and look for similarities with his own tusky stuff.

I wanted to jump in here, but then Nick continues:

>He could succeed (in mundane terms): he could convince himself that he's 
>right. He could perhaps succeed (in a HeroQuest): he could definitively 
>"discover" that the two gods are the same (of course, this is a personal 
>religious experience, thus not definitive in any global sense). He might 
>even become a cult hero, if he can find a way of showing anyone else what 
>he's learned, and have them believe him. Then the Boar Cult will get 
>stories of how their god gored the Devil, and go on to higher and better 
>things.

A question which has kept me thinking on this is: Would the HeroQuest
be necessary?   Maybe, if he's part of a larger group, who become lost
in a foreign country, they may, as a group decide/discover/realise that
the Storm Bull would be a different pose of the Great Boar, and try to
join in any worship service.   As Loren says:

LM>> Every worship service is a heroquest, and such worship slowly changes 
LM>> the mythic landscape for a particular locale or bloodline. Thus tradi-
LM>> tions develop and diverge, so that people worship differently in diff-
LM>> erent places...

Nick>YES! YES! You are *so* right in what you say. Hurrah for common sense!

Which only strengthens my fears about the way in which the God Learners
operated.   Take one Illuminate, so that people won't detect his real
affiliation, who just happens to have a very convincing story about 
this new god,  and he starts a 'fake' worship ceremony.  *His* motives
don't really count in the ceremony, it's that of the worshipers.  If
those are swayed by his story, they could, without realizing, create
the god on the spot, if they're sincere...  The 'priest' could use
any of his other cult affiliations to produce some convincing magical
effects...


-- 
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM

---------------------

From: ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de
Subject: "PRAXIAN VEGETABLES AND GRAIN"
Message-ID: <5738*_S=ngl28_OU=rz_PRMD=uni-kiel_ADMD=dbp_C=de_@MHS>
Date: 17 Sep 93 17:22:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1727

Concerning the Praxian dietary question:

I somehow missed the skullbush seed (introduced, I think, by Sandy Petersen 
in RQ2 Companion). This oilseed plant was said to play an important role in 
Praxian diet.

From what I remember Skullbush is a low-growin, probably thorny bush 
growing in areas offering some little protection against the abrasive 
desert wind. Nomad women (or slaves?) take care of harvesting the seeds.

I can imagine similar acacia (sp?) plants providing some seasonal 
vegetarian food.

Another plant which might improve Praxian diet considerably would be 
Einkorn. I read that in neolithic time einkorn grew e.g. on the Anatolian 
plateau. This is a grain plant growing in thick bushels carrying rich fruit, 
which can be harvested by stripping the grains off by hand. Inevitably some 
grains fall down onto the soil and make the seed for next years harvest.

The source I read said that one stand of einkorn produced sufficient grain 
for three adults for one year in a nomadic lifestyle. (AAll cited from 
memory, I might give exact data).

While most of the wastes most probably consists of Wisconsin-style dry 
steppe, the oasis places certainly offer this bounty. This would be in 
addition to dairy and meat produced from the herds, meat from hunting and 
raiding, and gathering on the march.

P.S.: My main mailbox account was unreachable recently due to hardware 
problems. I hope the guys managing it will fix it soon; messages to me may 
have bounced. If so, please repost.

Did anyone collect the last week's worth of RQ4-discussion, and is willing 
to mail it to me? Please mail me before!

Joerg (hating to be cut off the daily divination, reading this list via FTP...)

Joerg Baumgartner
ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de