From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Sep 1993, part 3 Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM Precedence: junk The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld) --------------------- From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk Subject: Shamanism, Spirit plane, rules, etc. Message-ID: <9309201550.aa10006@uk.ac.ed.castle> Date: 20 Sep 93 14:50:40 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1755 > From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) > Subject: Bound shamans; spirit weapons; Goat Riders; ecology rant > > I thought this plot-device might make the bones of a reasonable RQ scenario: > - Tribal Shamans are going Missing In Action when they discorporate. > - The PCs are called on to investigate. > - Clues lead to the revelation that some nasty sorceror has discovered how > to summon/bind discorporate shamans. > - The PCs are sent to Sort Out the sorceror, free the bound shamans & destroy > any research records which are found. > - If successful, the PCs are heartily rewarded buy the shamans' tribe(s). I must admit, I like this idea. It is a good point about shaman spirits having other stats too. If wraiths and such can, surely shamans should. The spirit weapons idea is interesting (I would prefer to call them spirit combat modes), I too am unsure though. Of course much of this could be done using spells, but at least it splits it amongst a number of stats so that most characters will have at least one decent score to work with. Leaving it all down to POW, as it is now, is even easier to gross out as you have only one stat to maximise. I think it is worth investigating the potential of this idea for a while. Perhaps these could be rationalised as spells which can only be cast by discorporate spirits. Conventional spirit combat would become a special case which all discorporate spirits can use instinctively. Then the special attack of wraiths and such would just be their own specialist attack mode instinctive to them (What if a shaman could get hold of a spell which alowed the caster to attack like a wraith? ... Nasty!). > Is it too corny or what? Yes, but if it works, who cares? I think it might be knocked into a usable system. It just needs a bit more thought. Perhaps we need to get back to basics. What do spirits want to achieve, what are their conflicts about? Then figure rules for it. BTW I prommised my GM I would pass him my copies of the daily, I think I might perform a bit of judicious editing here and there. My shaman character is having a bad time as it is. :-) > From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) > Subject: One bound spirit + fries; to go... > > Donald Wilton talked about how his healer was transformed into a PowerPC > by using a huge amount of cash to buy enchantments etc. > In earlier posts (during the resurgence of the Sorcery debate) people > talked about Sorcerors with rich parents being able to buy bound intellect > spirits and such. .... This all sounds a bit unlikely to me. I have though about this in my own campaign. The way I see it, every PC sorcerer or shaman I have ever seen has personaly created a handfull of matrices, binding enchantments, etc, as well as other enchantments. Presumably other sorcerers and such do the same, and have been since time immemorial. What happens to all this stuff? Much of it may end up in the hands of a powerfull few, but most will be passed on as heirlooms to favoured offspring. As a result I now give starting sorcerers and shamans in my games a few items. So far as commercial magic items go, these things are unlikely to have been made simply to sell but have just ended up that way. Perhaps an auction would be the best way to handle this. It would certainly be more challenging than a private deal. It would also be a great way to introduce NPC mages. > From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Steve Gilham Entropy requires no maintenance) > Subject: Dorastor & suicidal tendancies > > So where do we go from here? I might personally use AD&D2 as a > Glorantha system as that makes PCs a bit less brittle (as someone > commented recently, Glorantha has an ecology fit for heroes - in > that case I'd also like it to have a mechanic that allows it). > ... > But, hey, what about Ars Magica? That's politically correct > enough, surely, although it does cover the relatively high-tech > (compared with Sartar & Prax) 12th and 13th centuries, has > cheaper supplements, reputedly has the brittle PCs that many folk > seem to thing a good thing, and sorcerers no more powerful than > those of RQ3. The Shaman supplement looks like it has many of > the things recently discussed here. All that'd be neeed would > be to bolt on the cult/rune-magic mechanics I have a lot of sympathy for this point of view. I have said before on this list that the Ars Magica Shamans suplement is a real beauty. I am preparing a new Gloranthan campaign myself. I plan to use the ELRIC! game system, with a personalised version of RQIII spirit magic, cults and rune magic. I will probably scrap the RQ sorcery system and wing it for effect. I will use ELRIC! because it uses the same base stats and has a very nice swords & sorcery feel to it. Chaosium is realy coming up with some outstanding game systems and supporting material nowadays. Both Call of Cthulhu and ELRIC! are very smooth, sophisticated games. RQIII seems tangled and unwieldy in comparison. > From: scn/G=Neil/I=NA/S=Harold/O=Siemens_plc/OU=Congleton@mhs.attmail.com > Subject: Are all Telmori lycanthropes? > > I hope I'm not asking a previously answered question, but is > Dorastor now out in the US only? No, I bought a copy in Esdevium games a few weeks ago in Aldershot. I think Virgin Games on Oxford street had a few copies too. About Telmori : Little did us poor unsuspecting mortals guess, but there is in fact a group called the pure strain Telmori who were not cursed and have to use divine spells to assume wolf form. The implication in Dorastor is that the cursed Telmori loose controll of themselves and go on the ranpage when they transform on wildday, so they can't use this for their own rational ends. I have to end here, sorry about how huge this is, I just realised. Simon --------------------- From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: hooves; 'orrible rulesy stuff. Message-ID: <9309201622.AA03863@condor> Date: 20 Sep 93 16:22:45 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1756 Greg Fried: >Talking ducks? Walking octopi? Is there no room for sheep mounts in >Glorantha? Hmm, I think perhaps there is. ...so long as they're at least SIZ 30+... ...with iron wool ...and perhaps a Chaos feature ...or three. (I dunno 'bout the Ducks, but I take walking octopi *very* seriously.) -------- Chris Cooke: Lots of interesting questions. I'll attempt some answers but I can't be certain that everyone will agree 100%. There's certainly some room for debate: >Why is armor so expensive yet spells so cheap? At 30 + 15 per spell point >Heal-6 is only 120 but good armor is at least 10 times that. Ok, outside >your cult it's 100+50/pt=400 or am I missing something? (Costs from Apple >Lane I think) I guess the answer is that armour is difficult (costly) to produce. (A large chunk of the Medieval European economy was supposedly geared toward producing armour for knights; hence the de-forestation of Europe to stoke the furnaces to smelt the iron etc...). In bronze age Glorantha I guess that plate & chainmail also take a lot of time & resources to produce. (Mind you, they didn't have Form/Set Metal in Medieval times :-) Spells, on the other hand, take relatively little time & effort to teach hence the teachers don't have to charge much. >How high can they teach? 4?6?12? You can't "know" more points of spirit magic than your INT. Other than this I don't know of any limit to RQIII spirit spell size. The biggest I've seen published is 16 points (which was pretty gross). Bear in mind that, in theory, you have to battle a spell spirit to learn a spirit magic spell. I haven't seen a good guide to how powerful such a spirit should be. (I've heard 1D3 POW per point of spell, my GM used to use 1D6 POW per point! Hence "learning" big spells can be tough). Does anyone know what happens of you *lose* this combat? Will a cult spell spirit possess someone it defeats? >Do they have to have the spell that high to teach it as such? The "teacher" has to provide a spell spirit for the student to battle. Shamans do this by discorporating & wandering the spirit plane in search of a spirit. Priests use the ritual Divine spell "Spellteaching", which summons a cult spell spirit of the appropriate type. >Is spirit magic taught by the cults at a percentage or is that only for >shammans? Sorry, I don't quite follow that one... >How many strike ranks does BladeSharp-2 take to cast from a spell >matrix, 1SR or 2? Using a spell matrix works just as if you knew the spell yourself, so it takes the same length of time to cast (DEX SR + points of spell). Bound spell spirits & magic spirits are a different matter. They cast the spell for you, using their own POW. We've debated long and hard about how long it takes to make bound spirits cast spells... I wouldn't like to say. >Do shammanistic types need a true Shamman(or spell spirit) >to learn spirit magic or can they learn it at a temple? Generally this is a cultural thing. Primitive types wouldn't, as a rule, deal with temples. Besides, a temple won't teach magic to anyone who is not an initiate or strongly affiliated with the cult. Priests tend to be picky about who they'll deal with. However, it's not unknown for a primitive to "see the light" and join a cult. There has been some discussion in the Daily about the likelyhood of someone joining a cult just for the benefits... (Apologies to anyone who is offended by the use of the word "primitive" above). >If a sorceror's Treat >Wounds spell hastens normal healing - why doesn't it speed up the purging of >poison from the character's system(i.e. cure poison)? or help disease run >it's course faster(cure disease)? or can intensity be manipulated to do so? It's just the way the spell works. Treat Wounds only affects damage to specific locations. As a house rule we allow Regenerate to repair damage to general hit points (poison, drowning, general burns etc. that can't be Treated). RQ diseases are really nasty. Even after the disease has run its course the points of characteristic don't return. You need Restore Health (which would be expensive 'cos it's one-use Divine magic). Or train the stat up (unless it's INT or POW). >And for the stupid question of the day, why is chaos so wrong and what makes >it so different(better? worse?) from pure evil? The only problem with Chaos is that a lot of folk don't like it. );^> --- CW. --------------------- From: forester@mozart.srl.ford.com (Brian Forester) Subject: New GM starting Gloranthan campaign, Temple oRM thoughts. Message-ID: <9309201900.AA14170@mozart.srl.ford.com> Date: 20 Sep 93 19:00:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1757 Hello! The last time I played RuneQuest was back in 1983. I have only vague memories of that campaign, mostly of the lunar occupation of the sartar and the death of my character. I guess you could say that I am a RQ opostate. Two things brought me back into the fold: the RQ (Gloranthan) renaissance and having to deal with the excesses of our AD&D campaign. Things like Wyrms Footnotes, Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror, etc. have almost a mythological status for me. I have heard lots about them, but I have never seen one. I have always wanted to run Gloranthan campaign but never felt that I had enough information to make it work. With the latest releases in hand I have decided to launch a new campaign. Which leads me to the fact that I am introducing a bunch of long term AD&D players to a new system. Worse, this group seems to tend towards "powergaming" (e.g. one of the player characters is an elven magic-user/druid/thief with enough magic to arm a small nation). One of my goals is to get the group involved in a cultural and mythological setting instead of being culturally neuter entities whose only goals are the personal accumulation of power. Their introduction to Glorantha consisted of getting out the "Dragon Pass" map and counters and briefly describing the various races and cults/cultures in the area. Well, it might not have been the best of introductions because one of the players immediately latched onto the idea of playing a minotaur (named Red Horn) from Beast Valley. After some thought I decided to let him run the beast. I see him becoming a sort of Storm Bull parallel to what Mello Yello is for the Yelmalio cult in Sun County. Does even the Storm Bull cult have its standards? Given the biases that could be present would they allow such a creature as a minotaur as an initiate or does the fact he is a minotaur have special significance to other Storm Bulls? Anyways, rumours of war have reached his ears and he cannot agree to his compatriots studied neutrality. He's off to kill those chaos loving Lunars! Another character is an ex-lunar noble, actually a refugee from a terribly disastrous "dart competition" who may still have some Heartland nobles gunning for him. My biggest decision at the moment is trying to decide when to start the campaign. I am very tempted to start it in 1602 with the sacking of Boldhome. Some thoughts about Temples of the Reaching Moon: Disclamer: All of the following is based on my rather limited knowledge of Glorantha. Please point out any glaring errors or even differences of opinion :). The establishment of a Temple not only extends the Glowline but affirms the control the Red Moon has over the Middle Air. Through this control she is able to reduce the severity of Valind's winter winds. This is true for the heartlands, I don't remember any references of this being true for Tarsh (brief aside, The milder winters probably saves more lives the Crimson Bat destroys, although admittedly freezing to death does not destroy your soul). Such a temple nearing completion would precipitate a battle between the sylphs (and other forces that worship orlanth) that inhabit the Middle Air with whatever forces the Red Moon uses to enforce her control. Has anyone given any thought to what might entail the establishment of a Reaching Moon Temple? My first thought is that it would entail some sort of heroequesting. Isn't the glowline a change in the current ordering of reality? And affecting that change in reality would require heroequesting? Brian (forester@jethro.srl.ford.com) --------------------- From: stormbull@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tim Westlake) Subject: Where is soda? Message-ID:Date: 20 Sep 93 19:08:10 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1758 OK, having heard of the delights of the archieves on soda.berkley.edu, I am now trying to get to it. Can anyone tell me the IP address? Timbo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | StormBull@cix.compulink.co.uk | "The reason God was able to create | | Westlake_Tim@Tandem.com | the world in 7 days was that he | |-------------------------------| didnt have to worry about the | | I am not a free man, I am a | installed base." | | Resource! | - Enzo Torresi | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: RuneSeduction Message-ID: Date: 20 Sep 93 20:38:04 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1759 Greg Fried here. Good work, Chris! It's always good to hear that the heathen can be brought into the fold.... SOunds like you formed a nicley balanced group, with a varienty of narrative hooks to get them into their characters and context. As far as further adventures, I would say, allow the interests you see your players developing to guide you to the next scenario. If you must, 'force' them into a scenario you feel comfortable with, but then try to give them reasons for going that fit with the still-fragile connections they are making with their characters and cults. -- Matrices only do one thing for you: they free up your INT for other spells; otherwise, they work the same as the spells. -- I would not allow a shaman character to gain spirit spells at a temple, unless he for some reason has VERY close relations to that cult. -- I use the old RQ2 system for spell prices: 50 for 1 point, 100 for the second, 150 for the third, etc. BUT -- you must buy 1, then 2, then 3; ie, Healing 3 costs 300 (healing 6, 1050). I also have a system for making it hard to get a lot of points of stacked spirit magic, but that's another story, one that I've gone over here before, so if you want it, write to me personally. BTW, how do the rest of you price magic items if PCs wan to sell them? I make POW crystals very valuabe: 1000 per point. BUt the problem here is that then most tougher opponents are going to have crystal to back up their POW, so after any victory against anyone of note, the PCs are going to be very rich. Hm. How about matrices? About 500 a point? Yes? No? === Here's another game question. If an opponent has Countermagic up, do you just have to guess how many points ar up in it, or do you get a sense after you cast a spell against it that fails? === Ken: I would say that the answer to the question you ask depends VERY much on the spin YOU put on the relation of specific cults in your campaign. I would say, turn this question to your advantage by making your players role-play their cultic affiliation issues. So, for example, I would think that an Orlanthi who switches to Seven Mothers would almost certainly get womped on by cult spirits of retribution. But if the same Orlanthi becomes a Chalana Arroy follower (who was after all a companion Lightbringer), I would make the player role-play this shift very closely. If s/he can make a good case that works for the priests/esses, then all should be well. Think of this as a sort of mundane heroquesting. After all, why shouldn't a character have several important cult affiliations? Priest of two god? No. Acolyte of one god, initiate of several others? Yes! After all, that's what polytheism is all about -- exploring and participating in nyumerous masks of the gods. So long as the character can juggle all the material and spiritual obligation s/he thereby incurs, this should only add to the narrative depth of their personality. --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: another idea Message-ID: Date: 20 Sep 93 20:49:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1760 Chris, One more thought. When you give new players treasure, either give them small items, like one spirit magic item, or give them an item of more power but that requires them to get more involved in their cult and take on important obligations. FOr example you could put a greatax in a trasure for the minotaur character, one with a Trueax matrix which can only be activated if the wielder is follower of Storm Bull and takes it to the Block to fight Chaos. Otherwise, good treasure tends to move the characters in the direction of powergaming (I'm thinking of the campaign cited by Donald where suddenly rich characters buy huge ammounts of spells and spirits!).