From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 25 Sep 1993, part 2
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Dyaus-Pitar
Message-ID: <930924181718_100270.337_BHB51-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 24 Sep 93 18:17:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1822
A short while ago, Graeme asked:
(Re: the Cult of Dyaus-Pitar, Cults of the Indo-Europeans, and Dumezil)
>> I don't suppose you could explain these references for those of us
>> with less mythology? Is Dumezil an author?
I explained Dumezil, then said:
> I could try writing something more general, but this would take time.
> Go to a library, and I'll go to work.
That was dashed off under some time pressure (tho' I just managed to catch
the train). Now, I've a breathing space to give the story to you in brief;
while this isn't Gloranthan, it is very relevant to my own approach to
Glorantha, which some of you folk seem to enjoy.
Many thousands of years ago, they say, the proto-Indo-Europeans emerged
from somewhere 'round the Caucasus and went their separate ways. So
loads of different European and Indian cultures have fundamental
similarities at one level or another. The simplest ones to see are
linguistic -- Indian 'raja' is cognate with Latin 'rex' and Irish 'rig'
(Gloranthan equivalent: Old High Mantongue?) -- but the religious ones
are more fun.
Investigation suggests that there was an original "proto-Indo-European"
Sky God, Dyaus-Pitar (or "Sky Father"). In two different descendent
cultures he changed to become "Zeus / Dios" of the Greeks and "Jupiter"
of the Romans. These both have strong cultic and mythological similarities
with other sky/sovereign gods; more than can reasonably be explained by
"parallel evolution of ideas" (IMHO & that of learned others). So we have a
"root cult" and "root myth", and can try to deduce (by summing similarities
and rejecting differences) what these must have included.
Now, the Gloranthan application of this is to assume that "Orlanth" under-
went the same kind of shifts from culture to culture in Glorantha, then
look at real-world examples of such shifts to work out how different the
various "Orlanth-cults" can be. Or to look at it another way, if you were
writing up "Cults of the Mediterranean", would you be happy saying that
"Dyaus-Pitar has Great Temples at Rome and Olympia"? Many Gloranthan
sources are this abbreviated and genericised (sorry for my bad language!).
Adding the texture, via culturally-specific ritual and mythological details
and name-changes, makes the world more interesting and varied than the
current God Learnerish overview -- as well as less playable .
--------
Slaine is back in the pages of 2000 AD, nobbling the Romans for Boudicca!
And with Glenn Fabry's art, too! What joy! This is a *vital* artistic and
cultural source for Sartar campaigns, almost as good as the Asterix books.
====
Nick
====
"Slaine Mac Roth, a bone-splitter, a reddener of swords,
a pruner of limbs who delights in red-frothed, glorious carnage."
-- Ukko the Dwarf
---------------------
From: kenrolston@aol.com
Subject: RoC errata
Message-ID: <9309241625.tn49169@aol.com>
Date: 24 Sep 93 20:25:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1823
A long-belated reply to Alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk(alex) concerning this April post:
<>
Whoops. Dead on, Alex. In fact, in retrospect, I should have invented a
subordinate NPC mouthpiece for Gaumata; it weakens his status to make him
available to lowly PCs. That's how I'd fix this blooper: invent a Yelmalio
cardinal to speak for the pope.
And I'm the one who takes the fall for the Troubled Waters scenario. You may
be sure that EVERYTHING I say is wrong, citizen.
Ken
---------------------
From: kenrolston@aol.com
Subject: RQ Magic
Message-ID: <9309241849.tn52274@aol.com>
Date: 24 Sep 93 22:49:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1824
Simon Hibbs, re: Gloranthan magic in RQ.
<<
Is Gloranthan magic accurately portrayed in RQ.
RQ presents some very neat and logical game mechanics for sorcery and such,
involving numerous skills formulae. The problem is, this makes it difficult
for PCs or GMs to innovate.... But when I read some of the background
material in
KoS and the Genertela book, I get the impression that the terms 'Sorcerer'
and 'Shaman' are far more nebulous concepts in Glorantha than they are in RQ.
This implies that we need to loosen things up a bit in the game, or at least
provide some guidelines for doing so, which fit with the gloranthan
experience
of magic.
On a different, but related note. Call of Cthulhu has always had a very
sophisticated, atmospheric magic system. This consists of many summonings,
rituals and invocations. ELRIC! now also has a cast magic system, reminicent
of both RQ and Cthulhu. Yet NEITHER of these games has anything even remotely
resembling magical skills. No skills to learn, cast or manipulate spell of
any kind. Both magic systems successfully evoke and enhance the richness of
the background, yet the game system mechanics are quick and inobtrusive.
>>
Neither CoC nor old Stormbringer had wargame-capable, playable magic systems.
Not familiar w/ Elric yet, but I suspect at least the demons will continue to
be cool and not-wargamable.
Mind you, I am not a big fan of RQ wargaming, but wargaming and tactical
combat is the foundation of RQ's rules.
Sure, a looser system would better model a marvelously rich and complex
Gloranthan magical setting. But it wouldn't fit worth a damn with strike
ranks and hit locations.
Now -- RQ magic could be as cool as it wants to be if it takes more than
two or three minutes to produce. That takes it out of the combat round time
scale. Of course, proper old time fans of RQ Glorantha should scream bloody
murder.
Don't get me wrong. Your analysis is sound, and I am completely
sympathetic with your yearnings. But the solutions are not accessible with
complete reconception of RQ and/or Glorantha.
Clay:
<<
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.
>>
Lovely.
From the moment I saw Melo Yelo, I knew he was the kind of character who
should become Immortal in Glorantha. I am sure that he is every bit the
HeroQuester that Argrath is.
Ken
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Why my Pavis works.
Message-ID: <9309250512.AA04288@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 24 Sep 93 19:12:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1825
Here's a brief overview as to why my particular version of Pavis works, and
what it is like to be in it:
Pavis shouldn't work, at least not as it is presented in published materials.
Such a mixture of cultures ought to make quite a mess of things. Nevertheless,
it can work. In my Glorantha, Pavis is a great zone of mixture and
atomization, much like New York of many years ago and Los Angeles of today. I
take the separation of Pavis into neighborhoods very seriously, and use the
large immigrant-laden cities of the USA as a guide. For the Europeans in the
audience, remember that Greg Stafford et. al are from the USA, and their models
are very different from what you might know.
Anyway, Pavis's neighborhoods are a lot like the Chinatowns, Little Italies,
etc. of large US cities. Various ethnic groups cluster with each other and
have little truck outside of their areas, except when this is considered
necessary. Sometimes there is violence, but it is a very rare occasion for it
to spread beyond a single neighborhood (gang violence at the borders being the
most common exception). What holds this all together? Simply put, inertia.
The fact that a city is there is all that is necessary for the city to remain.
It would take a major disaster to tear Pavis apart. Now, there is VERY little
"Pavic identity" _strictu_sensu_. What I mean by this is that at least half of
Pavis's inhabitants see themselves as Praxians, Lunars, Heortlanders, etc.
first and as Pavisites second. But the other half, being the product of
inevitable mixture over the centuries, do see themselves as "Pavic". What is
this Pavic identity? First, it is descended from two roots: The EWF and
Sartar Orlanthi. However, it has diverged. Old line Pavics take pride in
their unique situation, much as a New Yorker who hasn't a bit of Chinese takes
pride in NYC's Chinatown. In other words, Pavis's very mixed status is a
source of the Pavic identity. However, the Pavic identity is also one of
denial of the mixed status. Thus, there is an underlying tension in the
question "who am I as a Pavic?"
Now, Pavis would normally have never developed more than a very nebulous
identity had not the Lunars come along. Suddenly, there is a definite
"other"--a foreign presense which it is easy to contrast oneself against. A
Pavic of Sartarite stock can embrace a Pavic of Praxian stock and say "Look, we
both value the storm and the free winds. We're better than those Lunar tin
cans any day." But this alone would not solidify a unique Pavic sense of
identity. After all, why wouldn't the Sartarite/EWF-descended Pavics just fly
into their ancient Orlanthi Heortlander roots? Some of them are, but many of
them are not for a simple reason: The Lunars drove quite a few Orlanthi
Heortlanders from Sartar to Pavis County, and the Pavics (including those who
live in the County but not necessarily the city proper) suddenly were struck
face-to-face with the fact that those they considered to be of the same culture
and lifestyle weren't. What I mean is that Sartarite "Orlanthi", regardless of
what anti-Lunar propaganda says, are NOT identical to Pavic "Orlanthi". Caught
between the need to define themselves in the face of a conquerer and the sudden
realization of _de facto_ estrangement from their "brothers" to the north, the
Pavics are now painfully developing a common identity. How will this turn out?
Only the future can tell.
Some other notes as a result of my thinking:
Sartar refugees are not as beloved as propaganda would have one believe. Sure,
they are technically religious allies against a common Lunar foe, but there are
differences and there is friction.
The Lunars in Pavis County are actively using these differences as a wedge to
drive the Pavic Orlanthi away from the Sartar Orlanthi.
The Lunars are also using the current situation to try to drive a wedge between
Orlanth agitators and Urox worshippers. Sor-Eel has not outlawed Storm Bulls
in his domain and is propagandizing them heavily.