From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 28 Sep 1993, part 2
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
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---------------------
From: gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: Lots of Stuff
Message-ID: <9309270713.AA19441@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 27 Sep 93 17:14:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1834
Nick writes:
> God Learners, it now is. But remember that it was allegedly a single
> language spoken (by some) across the whole Middle Sea Empire.
I was trying to find references to Tradetalk on the weekend, and found
very few (especially the "Tradetalk is a simplified dialect of Seshnegi"
that I thought I read somewhere). Where are the main references to
Tradetalk?
Issaries:
> Yep: probably god of tribal ambassadors who carry the words of the Kings:
> vital social function whether you're trying to arrange a big raid, fend off
> a war, negotiate for hostages or ransoms or compensation, etc.
This was one of the roles of Bards in Celtic society or of heralds in later
Europe, wasn't it? If this was the original form then the merchant part, now
central to the cult, seems to be entirely artificial ie God Learner.
Speaking of which, are there any historical polytheistic cultures that
had gods of trade? Trade has been looked down upon by many cultures for
a variety of reasons, possibly because merchants compete against the
monarchs and aristocrats.
>I thought the Short Lightbringers' Pilgrimage in KoS made it plain that
>the whole of this magically-potent ritual is a costumed reenactment
>performed by the clan, not just the start of it.
Yes, thats what I thought. Some parts seemed quite dangerous: I would
think the Humakti who can be enemies at one point would take their role
(guarding the afterlife) very seriously!
Greg is rather vague (deliberately, IMO) about the advantages of making
the Short LP. Can anyone make any good suggestions for actual RQ effects
for succeeding?
>Simon Manning says, re: Western Tongues, "I think that the for the Brithini
>we should think in terms of Greek and not Latin, 'cos the Latins were duff
>at science, while the Greeks weren't half bad."
>Ptoo! I say, the Romans were damn' good at Law. The Brithini don't come up
"Dread chastiser, axe that cleaves the neck" = good at Law? The Romans may
have been duff at theory, but some of their applied science wasn't so bad
(see interesting article on the crossbow in Scientific American a few years
back).
I'd be hesitant in putting too much classical history into the West. Though
the West seems to be modeled on medieval Europe, so much of it seems so
different, especially the religions. There the only similarity seems to be
the monotheism. The West also seems to be more scientifically active, more
like the later Renaissance.
On Dyaus-Pitar (or "Sky Father"): care to get started on the original
unified Yelm-Orlanth cult? Should make lots of friends :-)
"Join the God Learners. See the Hero Plane.
Meet Interesting Gods. And Enslave Them!"
> "Slaine Mac Roth, a bone-splitter, a reddener of swords,
> a pruner of limbs who delights in red-frothed, glorious carnage."
Sounds charming. Should get on well with Harrek. IMO that's a better
description of Harrek than Conan comparison.
Simon Manning writes:
>P.S. Are the "mystery" religions in the Lunar Empire. The White Moon and
>Church of Immortality are mentioned, but the latter is not described in
>any detail, and are candidates, but are there any others? Also, what is
>the Church of Immortality?
This seems to have been a bit messed up in transmission. I would call the
Red Goddess a mystery cult, since you need Illumination to join. I wouldn't
be suprised if there were a lot of small spirit cults in the empire, either.
The stages of initiation in Yelm seem to be a bit like Mithras as well.
Lewis Jardine writes:
>1) In the second age the Fronelian God of communication was assassinated by
> a group of Sorcerors, Shamans etc... This sounds like a bunch of GLs to me!
Well I think it was in the middle of the Third Age, but I agree. It didn't
have anything to do with the Closing, though the end of the Syndics Ban
seemed to coincide with Dormal the Mariner's arival in Loskalm. Prince
Snodal organized the conspiracy to save Fronela, which he had learned would
be destroyed by Zzabur in the next generation. His idea seems to have been
to totally isolate Fronela from the outside world so that Zzabur couldn't
get to it: I think the complete cessation of internal communications within
Fronela was unforseen. The co-operation of Loskalmi sorcerers with priests
seems very like the GL's, as well as acting on the Hero Plane for mundane
benefits.
I do think the Loskalmi at the very least have some access to God Learner
knowledge: see the write-up of Sir Meriatan in the Genertela pack. It
could go further: the very advanced Loskalmi culture (in terms of technology
and organization, as well as the very anachronistic democratic society in
a medieval culture) may be a deliberate God Learner construct, possibly made
to hide in to escape the wrath of the Gods (ie the other, more successful
God Learners).
One day I may write something: "The Decline and Fall of the Middle Sea
Empire: the God Learner's Civil War" :-)
Colin Watson on the spirit plane: very good as a description of the areas
of the spirit plane near to the mundane plane. It will change as you go
further away though.
Simon Hibbes on Elric and CoC:
> Yet NEITHER of these games has anything even remotely resembling magical
> skills. No skills to learn, cast or manipulate spell of any kind. Both
Which is in my opinion very sad and sloppy design. If you're going to have
a game based on a skill system you should have the balls to use it. Nothing
irritates me more about a game than when they decide to think up special
rules when they could be covered by the core rule system. This is what AD&D
excelled at IMO.
> magic systems successfully evoke and enhance the richness of the background,
> yet the game system mechanics are quick and inobtrusive.
The game mechanics of the skill system are quick and inobtrusive too, as well
as having the virtue of being generally applicable.
Ken Rolston writes:
> Now -- RQ magic could be as cool as it wants to be if it takes more than
> two or three minutes to produce. That takes it out of the combat round time
> scale. Of course, proper old time fans of RQ Glorantha should scream bloody
> murder.
Nothing wrong with producing some more ceremonial magic: it could fit in
with other RQ magic fine. The wargaming roots of RQ have left the ceremonial
magic a bit forlorn, but it could be expanded.
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
---------------------
From: pvanheus@cs.uct.ac.za (Peter van Heusden)
Subject: The Spirit Plane
Message-ID:
Date: 27 Sep 93 11:49:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1835
Hey... if the spirit plain consist of dead spirits slowly losing their form...
what is the spirit plane made of? Dead spirits who just faded?
Makes sense to me: The substrate of the spirit plane is spirit (the "raw
stuff"), with what are perceived as spirits in fact being eddies which
maintain their form somehow. Now, those in contact with the world have a
reason to do this: their will is towards what they perceive. Those who are
on the spirit plane either fade through assimilating with the forms of the
spirit plane (ie. with no form) or maintain reality through sheer will.
Consider for instance Greg Bear's tales of Mortdieu (sp?).
Somehow I don't think Greg Stafford would like this, though. I might use
it for my German game though, if I can tie it together with my theories
of spirits of the home. (BTW. In the end its all about essence)
Peter
*******************************************************************************
Peter van Heusden One man one newsfeed
CS3, UCT, Cape Town, RSA "but I love the setting. and the hippies
pvanheus@cs.uct.ac.za will be back in the fall" Red_Guest on MediaMOO
---------------------
From: shillada@gatwick.sgp.slb.com
Subject: Rune Quest Sorcery , Spirit Plane, Vampires in the Empire, Tradetalk
Message-ID: <9309271127.AA27843@icarus.gatwick.sgp.slb.com>
Date: 27 Sep 93 11:27:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1836
Colin Watson,
I agree with you that the problem with sorcery is long duration spells, particularly enhances. However, under our rules, the Inensities at low level are much
less (they can't be anything but). I also agree (strongly) that the PCs should
win most of the time. I have seen though, one sorceror (lowish level) multispell
palsy the entire opposition. This I think robbed other PCs of personal enjoyment
at the encounter, and encouraged (spit) power gaming.
Spirit Plane
I LOVED Geoff Gunner (and Colin Watson)'s ideas - I'll be using them straight
away.
Vampires
I remember reading somewhere that the Lunars have 'an entire legion of Vampires'
how is this legion maintained - is the surrounding populace fed to the pale faces ? do they all worship Vivamort ? How (and where) is this legion used ?
My PCs were thinking of joining the Sartarite resistance, and I was going to scare them a bit first.
Tradetalk
Would it work out that tradetalk became more fragmented away from ports (and thus GL influence). Would primatives have got it, and if they have, would it have
changed much ?
---------------------
From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Devotion of Initiates
Message-ID: <199309271919.AA03970@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 27 Sep 93 09:19:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1837
Actually, I have two questions:
1)
The week before last one of my players lost his character in a rather
gruesome way to a gorp. Last week, he decided to create a Pelorian. During
creation, he decided to create a sorceror. I had never had one in my game
before, and despite all the strong opinions about sorcery, I decided to allow
it. We established that his father served in the "magic corps" under Sor-Eel
during the invasion on Prax, but had since returned to Peloria. His son, the
new character, is a sorceror's apprentice (his father's). He came to Prax with
a letter of introduction to the Sor-Eel, who promptly started using him to
teach New Pelorian to the local scribes, then later sent him to Sun County to
when Count Ironpike requested an interpreter/liaison. He now works under
Hector in Sun Dome Temple learning about Sun Domer custom and language.
[The players have joked that he is a becoming a protocol droid :).]
OK, so much for introductions...my real question lies not with the obvious and
well-beaten sorcery questions, but actually how sorcery is used within the
Empire. At this moment, the character is only a secular sorceror, but being
from the Empire, seeing that his father was in the magic corps, and trying to
put a more Gloranthan spin on his character than dictated by the generic
rules, I think it is likely he is a member of a Pelorian sorcery-cult, perhaps
the Seven Mothers or even the Red Goddess. I claim ignorance regarding the
cults; I have not had anyone be from them in my games before and I am asking
this question cold before I crack the books. Nevertheless, I was hoping for
some viewpoints to read and mesh with my own ideas and those presented in
GoG and other sources once I've read them.
How would a young sorceror fit within Pelorian society? What cult or cults is
he likely to belong to, if any?
2)
Regarding religious importance of cult weapons and armor: Another one of my
players began as a non-Yelmalion Sun County person. He chose as his primary
weapon the military flail. However, as several years of play have passed and
he has done more and more in the service of the Sun Dome, he eventually "found
his faith" and joined the cult. In play last week, he was called before the
Count who placed him in command of a small expedition. At this point, he was
given as set of traditional Sun Domer armaments (scale hauberk, open face helm,
two spears, and a hoplite shield).
However, the player, while competent with the spear, did not immediately sieze
upon the significance of them and continued to use his flail. [His flail
skill is probably 25% better than his spear skill.]
My dilemma is: is it "realistic" to expect the player to forego using the
flail and instead use his cult weapon, the spear? Will he suffer any prejudice
from other cult members if he uses the flail?
I haven't quite formulated an opinion on this yet, although here are my thoughts
currently: while use of the flail is neither traditional nor expressly
forbidden, it does pose some problems. First, the Sun Domers fight in column
and phalanx form and their tactics are based on all members of the column
having spears. Second, he would certainly stand-out in the crowd for using a
flail, and more conservative members of the cult would probably not like it.
Yelmalio, after all, uses a spear and initiates should attempt to emulate
Yelmalio in all they do. Third, I imagine their are many ceremonies in the
cult which require displaying prowess with the spear -- mock combats, hitting
targets, etc. If he neglects his spear now, he will find it difficult to rise
higher in the cult. Third, using the flail also prevents him from using the
hoplite shield...and the same arguments above apply for it as well.
Thanks!
--
Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.
---------------------
From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: RoC errata
Message-ID: <199309271928.AA03994@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 27 Sep 93 09:28:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1838
Ken sez:
> A long-belated reply to Alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk(alex) concerning this April post:
>
> < In episode 3 of the Troubled Waters scenario, anyone notice that Gautama
> actually _talks_ to the player characters? Whoops. And this from the
> man who follows his cult vows "excessively". (As the Light Keeper, he
>
> Whoops. Dead on, Alex. In fact, in retrospect, I should have invented a
> subordinate NPC mouthpiece for Gaumata; it weakens his status to make him
> available to lowly PCs. That's how I'd fix this blooper: invent a Yelmalio
> cardinal to speak for the pope.
I noticed this, too. Although I once made the mistake of letting Gaumata
speak to the NPCs, I have since recinded myself. Currently, the only Sun Domers
who talked to the PCs in my game are Laertes Coatilon, who is the usual
mouth-piece, or Lady Vega, who is non-traditional and somewhat friendly to
them. Belvani has spoken to them once, with contempt. The Count, in a
powerful role-playing moment, has spoken ONE WORD to the PCs as a group. It
was "YAMSUR???" at which point the entire court fell into a stunned silence
until the Count recomposed himself and Laertes recovered the ball.
Things have loosened up a little since one of the PCs recently entered the cult.
To the relief of the Sun Domers, they can now talk to these demi-heroes
somewhat more comfortably through him. Of course, to the chagrin of the other
characters, they now seem to now consider the Yelmalion PC "in charge" of the
other (outlander) PCs.
--
Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.
---------------------
From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: RQ Magic
Message-ID: <199309271943.AA04062@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 27 Sep 93 09:43:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1839
> Clay:
> <<
> Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut
> string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.
> >>
> Lovely.
> From the moment I saw Melo Yelo, I knew he was the kind of character who
> should become Immortal in Glorantha. I am sure that he is every bit the
> HeroQuester that Argrath is.
The gift was given to our Arroyan PC, who, after having met Melo Yelo, coerced
the priest of Yelmalio at Stablefort to give Melo a "fair hearing" before
the village in the town square. The Sun Domers, of course, held the poor
creature in contempt and had never listened to him. Sure that he could prove
"a mere monkey" was unfit to be a Yelmalion, the priest proceeded to ask Yelo
detailed and problematic questions regarding the faith and history of Sun
Dome. Melo succeeded in answering the questions, infuriating the priest who
then claimed the Arroyan had obviously tricked him somehow. Later, thankful
for having finally been given a chance to prove his mettle before the cult,
Melo made the gift above and gave it to the Arroyan.
The story has a happier ending, however. The Arroyan succeeded later in
gaining a grant from the Count himself in gratitude for service rendered to the
Temple. After a second of thought, she requested that Melo Yelo be allowed to
join the cult. Caught on the horns of his honor, the Count relinquished and
allowed the baboon to enter the cult. He placed Yelo under the tutelage of
Lady Vega (as a subtle insult, I am sure). Lady Vega, accustomed to challenges
of prejudice, accepted and the fortunes and progress of this baboon has become
the hottest topic of gossip in the Temple.
--
Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.
---------------------
From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Another Problematic Question...Sorcerors and Storm Bulls
Message-ID: <199309271950.AA04095@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 27 Sep 93 09:50:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1840
What is the Storm Bull dogma regarding sorcery?
--
Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.