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Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 07:15:48 +0100
Message-Id: <9309290615.AA23330@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 29 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
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- ---------------------
From: gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: Chaos, Pelorian Sorcerers, Earth Goddesses and Nick Brooke
Message-ID: <9309280801.AA20554@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 28 Sep 93 18:02:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1843
I write re chaos:
>>There is little pure evil that seeks to destroy the entire world.
Kiliki (Chris Cooke> writes:
>How does a Broo, who can breed with anything, seek to destroy the world? It
>seems to me he seeks rather to fill it with his own kind. Creation rather
>then destruction. Another example is the walking octopi, continual LIFE
>rather then destruction. It may be an end to life as we currently know it but
>so does the Lunar invasion.
Both the Broo and the Walkatpus are breaking _physical laws_, the Laws
of Gloranthan reality, with their abilities. The walkatpus is lively
because it is immune to Death: the Broo is breeding with those not of
its kind. By their existance they are weakening reality.
>*SIGH* One more thing to buy just to get simple answers...
Well you won't be glad to hear where we got Chaos = World Destruction
from: Cults of Terror (RQ2, long out of print) and Tales of the Reaching
Moon No.7, The Chaos Feature (a fanzine). There may be some stuff in the
older WF's as well, but I don't have access to those. I got this stuff
through photocopies, though I'll order TOTRM 7 when it gets reprinted.
"Cults of Dorastor" forshadowed in the Dorastor pack, may reprint much
of CoT. (Note to Ken R: when might we expect to see CoD?)
>If chaos wins, there is chaos left. Broos, Walktopi, Jack-o-Bears, etc. I
>guess I still don't understand since this isn't "nothing" just not "our" thing
If Chaos had won the Gods War, the universe would have been totally
obliterated. The Broos, Jack-o-Bears with it: they are just natural
creatures which Chaos controls, they still have many features imposed
upon them by Gloranthan laws ie form, reality, souls etc.
The Chaos Features are it's mechanism for breaking natural Laws on a
small scale. Chaos doesn't seem to be able to destroy the world
as easily since Time began, but many people think the Lunar Empire is it's
best try since Gbaji.
>I will say - finding the basic information is TOUGH. no organized tables,
>lists of rules for the types of magic. the summary packet included in the
A very legitimate complaint: I had high hopes for better organization in
RQ4. RQ3 is now nearly 10 years old, and is showing its age. A question for
everyone: are there any other RPG's on the market which have had no new
editions (even bug fixes) in 10 years?
Clay Luther (did I spell it right?) writes:
>rules, I think it is likely he is a member of a Pelorian sorcery-cult, perhaps
>the Seven Mothers or even the Red Goddess. I claim ignorance regarding the
>cults; I have not had anyone be from them in my games before and I am asking
>this question cold before I crack the books. Nevertheless, I was hoping for
There aren't any specific Pelorian sorcerer cults: the Seven Mothers uses
Spirit Magic and the Red Goddess it's own. The Etyries cult writ-up mentions
that they can be sorcerers. I think you have two Pelorian choices:
i) His family was from Carmania, where they do practice sorcery (a brand
of Malkionism)
ii) "Unaligned Sorcery" (I can hear the hissing from the crowd): what this
really means no-one knows. I feel that an "Unaligned Sorcerer" would be a
member of the sorcerous equivalent of a spirit cult, that is he is part
of a small group with their own beliefs. In Peloria, with its Romano-Greek
influences, I would use various classic philosophies like the Stoics,
Pythagoreans or Cynics. The only beliefs all these philosophies would have
in common a)is hatred for all the others and b) respect for the Red Goddess
(or they would have been supressed).
>My dilemma is: is it "realistic" to expect the player to forego using the
>flail and instead use his cult weapon, the spear? Will he suffer any
>prejudice from other cult members if he uses the flail?
He'll certainly meet the prejudices you list: see how Belvani (a RL) is
treated for using shortswords. If he uses the flail when he's on his own
he'll just be thought wierd, but if he uses it formation he will be
disciplined.
Also remembber that blunt weapons are favoured by Trolls, including
Zorak Zoran. Not the Yelmalion's best chums.
>What is the Storm Bull dogma regarding sorcery?
Fear and Loathing.
When Greg was in Australia he said that an Orlanthi would never let
a sorcerer touch him, for fear of being Tapped. Other people have
commented on this list that he has said that all non-sorcerous cultures
hate sorcery.
On the other hand, Storm Bull may be a bit of an exception: "As long
as he's not chaotic, fine by me".
Nick Brooke writes:
>Of course, since KoS also shows us Orlanthi myths where the other gods are
>associated with Orlanth before he sets out (or even advise him to set out),
>this theory has lost a lot of its force...
Yes, I noticed this the other day. I assume those other myths are the
later ones, the Lightbringers Quest seems central to the conception
of Orlanth.
>Voria cultists grow up, and become Ernalda cultists. Earth worshippers
>who are traumatised change to Babeester Gor or Maran Gor: they don't take
>their Bless Crops etc. spells with them.
Are there any other cults like the various female Earth cults who
have this sort of progression? I can't see people changing amongst
the Lightbringers or Seven Mothers. Just possibly an Orlanthi could
become the more specialized Storm Bull chaos killer, but most other
cults either don't accept changing roles (Humakt, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana
Arroy) or have them internally ie Yelm. Maybe Wind Lords could become
Storm Voices as they age.
I think this could be a mainly a problem for the Earth Goddesses that
form female role-models.
>however, a world-realism problem; one that is admittedly made worse by
>reusable Rune Magic for initiates (one of my pet projects, now widely
>agreed to be a Good Thing), but one that is bad enough to require surgery
>in any case.
And I thought it was my pet project!
Speaking of which, I haven't seen too much on the subject for a
while. Anyone got new ideas?
>Ken said:
> You may be sure that EVERYTHING I say is wrong, citizen.
Trust the Red Goddess. The Red Goddess is your friend.
Stay Alert! Trust No-one! Keep Your Scimitar Handy!
Newton Hughes writes:
> Orlanth, as the
>king of the mundane world, closely resembles some peoples' idea of
>the devil. His enemies would interpret his Runes (Storm, Change,
>and Mastery) as Violence, Treachery, and Cunning.
I like this a lot. What other evil interpretations could people
make of their enemies' runes?
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
- ---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: of flails and elephant gods
Message-ID:
Date: 28 Sep 93 08:25:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1844
Greg Fried here.
I'm back with a hit and run posting to the Daily!
Graeme:
You asked about a RL polytheistic god of trade. Here's one: Ganesh (sp?), an
elephant-headed Hindu deity. He is a god of scholars and merchants. I have
a little bronze figurine of him from Thailand stting on my computer for luck
(which he is supposed to bring). Check out an encyclopaedia of religion or
other source on Indian religions. I am sorry I cannot tell you more
off-hand, but I know he is fun and very interesting.
===
Clay:
LOVED the news and gossip on Melo Yelo! That's some rockin' campaign you got
there!
As for that Yelmalion with a flail.... I'd say that unless he were really off
on his own, his file (or whatever he is leading) would feel about his flail
like what a police force would feel about you bringing an Uzi to work, or a
magnum, when they have a regulation weapon. Who the HELL do you think you
are?! Maybe if you heroquest, like that Dirty Harry fellow, you can holster
that magnum on duty. Otherwise, get with the program. And I agree that the
spear would figure into LOTS of cult ritual.
===
Chris:
Dude, yer airborn! Doesn't seem you need much help at all! But I enjoy
hearing the progress. Thanks for the feedback on my questions. I'm not sure
what you mean by 'shamanistic types' as distinguished from shamans.
===
Nils:
On a quick read, I wasn't sure what you were on about. However, you may be
interested to know that the Athenians kept up an alter explicitly reserved
for an Unknown God -- just in case! Now, what would the game mechanics for
that be....?
===
Pendragon style cult stuff:
This would be a good innovation, as has been said here before. Here' my
thumbnail sketch of a system:
- - Develop a set of traits valid for Glorantha (it'd be nice if they were
correlated to the runes...)
- - Determine a numerical range for values on the traits.
- - Establish what range of values on given traits a cult 'sponsors'.
- - Whenever a character acts/fails to act in accord with a trait,
reward/penalize him or her with a POW check. The nature of the POW 'check'
would be different from the present rules, allowing for several plusses
and/or minuses in the course of an adventure. Alternatively, the character
could gain WILL checks (highly speculative!!) for acting in accord with
traits, that could later be useful in heroquests, divine intervention, etc.
But this would encourage high-myth gaming, power-gaming, and would be
incomprehensible and useless to new/low level players.
- - Movement from one level of intensity in a trait to another should not be
automatic on a player's say-so. Changing your personality, even when you
commit to a cult, ain't so easy. Changing a level of trait intensity should
involve a POW resistence roll, resulting is a possible POW loss. For
example, a youth raised in a good Orlanthi home joins Chalana Arroy. He
takes on a STRONG duty to the trait of (say) nonviolence, but his clannish
upbringing still runs in his veigns, and he has a quick temper. He must
'overcome' his violent steak, possibly losing some POW in the process (a
short bout of depression and culture shock). Alternatively, his player could
come up with some VERY shrewd rationale for when and why he can express his
anger, but this very rationale may in turn commit him more strongly to OTHER
traits.... The stuff of role-playing! Comments? (I already knida wing such
a system in my campagn...)
GF out.
- ---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Odds and Ends about Yesterdays Digest
Message-ID: <9309281116.AA23404@Sun.COM>
Date: 28 Sep 93 11:22:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1845
Cults and Morality:
A Wind Lord saves an Ernalda priestess because it is what Orlanth
has done/would do. Therefore in the Wind Lord's eyes it is the right thing
to do. Remember that morality is in the eye of the beholder and that does
not mean that it is always the same as our *Victorian* Christian morality.
Remember that Orlanthi would be quite happy having an affair with the
Priestess afterwards (they might even regard it as their just deserts)!
Lunes and Shades versus multiple opponents
If I remember correctly the attack froma Lune or Shade happens at a
specific SR therefore it only gets to attack once per round so if it moves
through several people they may feel a bit funny but only one gets the full
blown attack. Obviously bigger shades may sit over more characters and thus
attack several at once if they all decide to stay together, but I am less
concerned with this as there is an element of choice for the victims.
Salamanders are a bit more of a problem, I suggest that moving salamanders
which engulf a character for a fraction of the round cause fractional damage.
(a quick blast of flame gets rid of unwanted facial hair and gives youa suntan
but standing in front of a large blowtorch for 12 seconds really barbecues you!)
The West is currently undergoing the Renaissance
Too right, remember it is 1500 - 1600 years after Malkion (AM) and
the lands are coming out of the *Dark Ages* of no communication. Even the
time is about right (and we all know that time has been mucked about with.)
Storm Bull Dogma on Sorcery
Why do Storm Bull need dogma?
Does that sorcerer over there smell of Chaos?
The only Storm Bull dogma is KILL CHAOS!
Remember dogma implies thought, something Storm Bullies are not reknown for.
Chaos, Life the Universe and Everything.
Broo and Walktapi = The end of Life as we know it (Jim).
The Lunar invasion = The end of Life as we know it.
Broo and Walktapi = Chaos (KILL THEM)
Therefore the Lunar Empire = Chaos (KILL THEM)
See this is the sort of thing that happens when Storm Bullies try to think!
Enchantments should be Common
Well I agree that there should be quite a few about but remember you
have to learn quite a bit of ceremony and enchant before you make the attempt.
Remember that alot of people are too busy farming to take the time off to learn.
Why doesn't everyone have Warding on their house?
After all you don't need to learn horrendous amounts of magic rituals for it?
Try this then. Your neighbour's young boy is in a fight with yours.
He runs home, your boy chases him through the Warding 4.
Alarm, bang (4d3 damage) and your son is blown to bits!
This reminds me of Nicks comments about why Market spells should not cause
damage.
Fishermen who cannot fish.
Fishing is a craft, there should be the option of taking craft
(fishing) under the character generation rules (I hope!).
Speedart 4 !!!!****!!!!
Speedart is not a variable spell (therefore you should only be
allowed one point of it) also your Humakti wannabe should be concentrating
on using the sword not namby pamby missile weapons (except thrown dagger).
I suggest that you agree with him to convert the excess point of Speedart
into Bladesharp.
-----
Lewis
-----
- ---------------------
From: staats@MIT.EDU (Richard C. Staats)
Subject: Elfbows for Non-humans
Message-ID: <9309281527.AA20646@MIT.EDU>
Date: 28 Sep 93 16:32:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1847
According to the Troll Lore we've been given, when a human joins
Kyger Lytor, the person is first killed and has several parts of his/her
body replaced with trollish items. After a couple of days, the person
is either reborn as a Kyger Lytor initiate or doesn't (read that *very*
dead). It would make sense that a human could join Aldrya in much the
same way.
I've had players play non-elvish initiates of Aldrya without ill
effects, game balance wise (some of them did acquire these high pitched
voices that drove the other players mad!). Aldrya is one of the better
Cults for creating a "culture". you really get a feel for what elvish
culture must be like with Aldrya as the focal point.
In service,
Rich
- ---------------------
From: staats@MIT.EDU (Richard C. Staats)
Subject: Chaos vs Evil
Message-ID: <9309281534.AA21170@MIT.EDU>
Date: 28 Sep 93 16:40:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1848
>If chaos wins, there is chaos left. Broos, Walktopi, Jack-o-Bears,
>etc. I guess I still don't understand since this isn't "nothing" just
>not "our" thing
Glorantha is just an aberation in a vast sea of chaos.
Everything tainted by chaos that exists in Glorantha is just a
manifestation of the forces of ultimate destruction seeping into the
world to destroy it. Think of the story of the Little Dutch Boy holding
back the forces that threaten to break the dike.
Hey, it's just a dragonsnail and a gorp today, but tommorrow . .
. ! ;-)
"Don't give into the Dark side of Illumination Luke!" ;-)
In service,
Rich
- ---------------------
From: mstrong@cix.compulink.co.uk (Mike Strong)
Subject: HeroQuests
Message-ID:
Date: 28 Sep 93 16:00:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1849
In-Reply-To: <9309280615.AA23918@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
In response to my comments about HeroQuests, Nick Brooke says
>This is the old "Super RuneQuest" argument, which active HeroQuest
>players seem to love, but which has put off many others
Is this a suggestion that there may be RuneQuest power gaming going on?
If so, then I'd just like to point out that 10 years of play of
RuneQuest have led to *one*, solitary HeroQuest. This ain't powergaming,
and probably does not count as "Super RuneQuest". As Nick also comments,
it was "a question of scale" in which the opposition was indeed scaled
to the questers ability. It also resulted in the HeroQuester voluntarily
sacrificing his life for the greater good of the Glorantha he knew.
Walking the Hero Planes, and following a HeroQuest should take many
years of preparation and few people are capable of successfully making a
genuine HeroQuest.
>The trouble is, a game where your character single-handedly saves
>Sartar from Lunar oppression doesn't contain much exportable material
>for other campaigns
Saving Sartar from Lunar oppression would indeed provide a fair amount
of exportable material for other campaigns, I would have thought.
Actually, the real problem with HeroQuests (as I see them) is that they
*may* fundamentally change the religious and socio-economic beliefs of
Gloranthan society, moving you further and further away from the kosher
sources. HeroQuests of this nature should, therefore, be infrequent.
>The Orlanthi Greetings are surely HeroQuests
Well, I see these more as rites and rituals. If your particular faith
wants to call them HeroQuests (probably to make all its members feel
that they are a part of a living, active faith) then fine. But renowned
Orlanthi HeroQuesters presumably do not sit in bars boasting that they
spent the previous day greeting Yelamlios...
>you don't *need* to go to the Hero Plane to live as your god's
>representative in the world
Agreed
Mike
- ---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 28 Sep 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <9309281737.AA26279@venus.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 28 Sep 93 17:37:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1850
Paul R. here, replying to Nick:
>it's silly for a grandmother to have little girls' Rune spells left over:
>she ought not to be able to access them any longer. Voria cultists grow up,
>and become Ernalda cultists. Earth worshippers who are traumatised change
>to Babeester Gor or Maran Gor: they don't take their Bless Crops etc.
This is how we run it in our campaign. There is only One earth goddess
with six (or nine) faces. I had a set of rules for the progression, will try
to write it up if there is interest. This has led to some good things in our
campaigns - one player wanted a Babeester Gor character. I helped her create
the outline of a character story and we played through the conversion. SHe
started out as the virgin priestess of a Voria shrine. We didn't tell the
other PC's about the plan for her character. They thought she was playing a
temporary PC (Voria's aren't very viable as PC's) to get the feel of the
game. The temple was attacked and when it got really hairy she DI'd to
Voria - who is also Babeester Gor - to get a protector for the temple.
VOria/Babeester Gor sent a spirit to possess her. From the point of view of
the other PC's, the hapless priestess they were protecting suddenly picked
up an axe and became a berserk death-dealing dervish. So she became a
B.G. Initiate.
Again, the same thing could happen with Ernalda & Maran Gor. A raped
Voriant (if that is the right term) might go directly to Maran Gor or Gorgorma.
In our current campaign there is a political struggle based on control of
the Asrelia cult. The local Ernalda priestess was planning to become the
Asrelia priestess. A previous Ernalda priestess became only an Initiate
of the Crone because she didn't have the money to become a priestess; an
Etyries priestess stepped in and gave the old woman the money, filling the
cult position that the local Ernalda priestess was planning to take in a few
years. This led to some bad blood between the Ernaldan and the Etyries...
Agree completely with Nick about changing roles, have played this way for
many years. I am not sure if I sent something to the Net about this or
not (several years ago) but let me know if there is interest.
Nick says:
>The 'problem' will emerge when more people adopt a Pendragon-esque sense of
>time, playing family- or clan-based campaigns out over decades and
This happened to us back in RQ II days... characters covered about forty
years.
>Nice try, Lewis, but the God of the Silver Feet was assassinated in the
>middle Third Age, long after the God Learners had shuffled off this mortal
>coil and joined the choir invisible.
They sure have you fooled. :-)
Does anyone else besides me think of the God Learners as sort of hapless
do-gooders, i.e., they are well-intentioned but unwise? I actually like
casting the BRITHINI in the villain's role. Those old Talars have
Spread Lies About the Enemy 2000%. Think about the Brithini's big enemy's:
the Vadeli and the God Learners. Who else has such a bad reputation (barring
Chaos)?
At some point I need to talk about the SPirit WOrld but this deserves a well-
thought-out post that I have not the time for today...`
- Paul
- ---------------------
From: goroh@fee.unicamp.br (Andre de Oliveira Fernandes)
Subject: Some questions...
Message-ID: <9309281750.AA11295@fee.unicamp.br>
Date: 28 Sep 93 17:52:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1851
Here goes Goroh:
Some time ago, a PC failed on a Create Familiar INT(4), APP(some), and
some other characteristics, while trying to change an earth elemental into his
own familiar. The elemental was already bound into an item.
Should he lose all the characteristics he risked on the ritual or not?
(there was a lot of INT, APP and DEX, I think). Or should he lose only POW?
If he had not failed, the creature would become his familiar, and not
a common earth familiar. Since the creature was bound into the item, what
should happen (it's not an earth elemental anymore, the binding enchantment
couldn't work)? Would the item break?
About Ogres...
Do ogres MUST eat sentient beeing's flesh, or is it "just" an option?
I read somewhere that they lose control when close to a Cacodemon's holy
place, is that ok?
Just asking...
Goroh
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