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Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 07:16:20 +0100
Message-Id: <9309290616.AA23578@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 29 Sep 1993, part 2
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
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Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

- ---------------------

From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Doraster disaster
Message-ID: <9309282038.AA00227@condor>
Date: 28 Sep 93 20:38:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1852

I'm one of the two GMs in our RQ group. It was the other GM's turn to
buy a published AH product, so he recently bought Doraster (#14.95).
I spoke to him at the weekend and he was feeling rather cheated. He
said there were a couple of dozen pages of encounters which were so
gross that he'd *never* be able to use them. He was annoyed at having
to fork out for this kind of stuff when it would only take 10 minutes
(and a similar number of braincells) to scribble down such a set of
pointlessly huge stats himself.
He read me some of it, and showed me some of it and I must say that
I agree. Is this really what people want?
I hope that the background stuff & scenarios (which I haven't seen)
are more reasonable...
======================

Anyway, back to yesterday's Daily (worth every penny IMHO).
___________
Nick Brooke invoked a MINARIAN MEMORY REMOVAL, but I vaguely remember something
which I feel I must comment on, along the lines of...

> And how will they [the PCs] win, then, against NPC XXXXs with YYYY?

The answer is that they *won't have to* unless the GM is feeling particularly
vindictive. The GM has complete control over what his NPCs do - if he doesn't
want things to get gross then they don't have to get gross.
We could be talking about "Monsters with Huge Stats", "Lunars with Crippling
Taxation", "HeroQuesters with Gifts From God" or (even) "Sorcerers with
Intensity 15 Damage Boosting".
This isn't a rules issue, it's a GMing issue.
Personally, I don't have a problem with rules which allow potentially gross
NPCs. In fact, I like the *possibilty* of having huge NPCs with which to
*threaten* the PCs (but I wouldn't necessarily put them up against each other).
It may even give the players something to aspire to.

[back to more constructive matters...]
I appreciated your comments on my Spirit Plane ideas.
You mentioned Very Powerful spirits which are worshipped (by Spirit Cults?) in
Prax:
My understanding of such matters is slightly fuzzy. Obviously, "real Gods"
(like Daka Fal) exist on the God Plane and hence they wouldn't have to
worry about POW deterioration (like I suggested in my earlier post) because
they exist outside Time. Big Spirits (like the Bad Man), on the other hand,
exist in the Spirit Plane and hence (by my model) would be prone to POW
deterioration over time. I reckon that sufficient worship would keep their POW
topped up. If worship ceased then they would have to resort to more mundane
ways of maintaining their POW, ie. casting offensive spells or attacking
other spirits.

This raises some interesting side points:
- - Such spirits are Very Powerful. *Almost* godlike. (Can they give Divine
  Spells?).
- - But they're not bound by the Compromise. They exist in the Spirit Plane
  within Time.
- - So they can directly affect mortals and each other...

Does this mean that, for example, the Horned Man could try to kick seven
shades out of Frog Woman? (who is Frog Woman BTW?)
Or, for that matter, would she directly attack the worshippers of rival
spirits?
The Spirit Plane could be a very interesting place if it's the battlefield
of quasi-deities.
It seems to me that Spirit worship could raise similar problems to those that
existed before the Compromise. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick
completely?
Do worshipped spirits transcend to the God Plane?
____________________________
shillada@gatwick.sgp.slb.com mentioned:
>I remember reading somewhere that the Lunars have 'an entire legion of
>Vampires'
...

I really don't think I want to know the answer to this one.... <:-(
___________
Chris Cooke:
>How can enchants be rare in a land SO rich in magic?  Everybody and their
>brother has "Enchant".
Everyone may have a *little bit* of enchant skill. But to enchant an item you
need to learn the appropriate ritual (enchant) spell and make a roll under your
enchant skill. If you fail you still lose the POW. So, in my experience,
only people with 70%+ enchant skill will risk making enchantments.

>A permanent point of power sacrificed is not that big
>a deal with weekly power checks(see experience, players guide).
You only get a POW check if you've exercised your POW by overcoming
an opponent in a MP vs MP duel (eg. by casting an offensive spell). BTW I don't
give a POW check if this is done gratuitously (eg. disrupting a dying Trollkin).
Only people who adventure regularly are likely to get regular POW checks.
I reckon my characters gain 1 POW every 4-5 adventures. So a permanent point
of POW is quite a big deal.
[...]
>why wouldn't most people fashion
>wards for their house?  seems like CHEAP protection for your family to me...
Warding for homes is not too unreasonable I suppose. But its a lot easier
to get 'round a Warding (with countermagic etc.) than it is to put it up in the
first place.

[...]
> Why not just a sheep the size of a rhino?
I'm beginning to wish I'd never mentioned the bloody Sheep Riders of Prax. :)

[...]
> Money is not a driving force in
> my world for Cults or Shammans, Sorcerors - maybe...
I definitely agree with this.

>> >Is spirit magic taught by the cults at a percentage or is that only for
>> >shammans?
>> Sorry, I don't quite follow that one...
>
>Ok, in the pregenerated PC's they list a % by spirit magic.  Is that % success
>at casting that particular spell?  chance to know a spell?  general chance of
>success for all spirit magic casting?  does it apply to the spirit magic
>taught buy cults as well or only that taught by Shammans?  and how is it
>calculated?
Ah! Now I see what you mean. The % is a general chance of success for all
(non-ritual) spirit magic casting. It's based on POWx5 plus Magic Bonus
(and possibly minus ENC). The chance of casting Spirit magic is purely based
on POW and cannot increase by experience or training. It won't change unless
your POW changes. This applies to both cult & shamanic Spirit Magic. It also
applies to Spirit Magic spell matrices.
For ritual Spirit Magic (enchantments etc.) use the appropriate ritual skill
instead.

Sounds like your campaign is shaping up great. I must say I too prefer games
where the GM gives the players options rather than railroading them into
one scenario.

>they could MAYBE have taken the roc in the
>Greenbrass sceniaro.  The Humakt wannabe has SpeedDart-4...
Uh oh? Are you playing RQ II or III? In RQIII Speedart is not variable (for
1 point it gives a straight +15% bonus, +3 damage). If you're playing RQII then
you may want to disregard what I just said about spell chances above :-)
But feel free to ignore this old rules lawyer...   ;->

I thought a Humakt wannabe would be more interested in Swords than missiles
anyhow.

>The bear, cave troll, giant spider, and bandit weren't too tough.
I'm impressed. I remember taking a real kicking from the Spider and being
too hurt to fight the troll. But we had fairly inexperienced characters.
Just how tough are your guys?

>This week the first of the chaos creatures (a pair of Jack-o-Bears). 
Two Jack-o-Bears! Chalana-Arroy in a smoking birch-bark canoe!!!
I just hope the PCs get within sword reach before they're all harmonised.

Eagerly awaiting the next installment.
___
CW.

Speaking of next installments: What's happened to Mannimark?

- ---------------------

From: Tom.Zunder@mettav.royle.org (Tom Zunder)
Subject: Gods, Gods, Gods
Message-ID: 
Date: 26 Sep 93 20:02:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1853

Gods

I think we should accept something. the gods don't exist in Glorantha at all.
They are the mass delusion of multiply deluded people.
Each
deluded person shares a mass hysterical isslusion of their god and from these,
since Glorantha is magical, a Jungian construct is
formed.

HeroQuesting is questing amongst the spiritual mess that this produces, it
looks as we expect it to be, because we create and perceive it. An Uleria
Initiate from Prax will still see and hear Uleria in a Teshnos prostitue
temple, because she believes she
will.

Faith rules Glorantha totally. Faith creates and recreates Glorantha.

All the above is a lie.

Pantheons

Ken, I think if one chooses, as a young girl, to follow Chalana Arroy then one
isn't renouncing or contradicting Orlanth. One is taking another path. Society
needs different roles, and religion reflects that. Just as a warrior or king is
needed, so is a healer. One may reach spiritual fulfilment as a pacifist,
whilst recognising the need for fighters. Chalana Arroy and Orlanth, as myths,
probably argued about this, but resolved it. Just as, in Orlanthi culture, the
clan Council will have to resolve the calls for raiding, the calls to harvest,
the calls to give money to the poor clan next door who had a
disaster.

On Earth a nun follows Christ, in a different but compatible way to a Knight
Templar or a farmer..

Glorantha is poly pantheist, as Earth is. After all in Catholicism one could
view saints as little cults within the overall cult. A Hindu has multiple
deities, but a coherent cultural religion. On Earth new
pantheons can be made from others. The Chnese blend Confucianism with Taoism
and Buddhism. The Japanese blend Buddhism with Zen and then blend it with
Shinto. In India the pantheons of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity
all co-exist. I see monotheism as the strengthening of the core identity to the
exclusion of others, but many monotheist religions have then redeveloped
pantheistic tendencies (altho not absolute beliefs, but then again, what is the
Holy Trinity? is the Virgin Mary divine?).
In Glorantha some pantheons are homogenous and firm in their xenophobia, some
places are a melting pot, such as Pavis. In Pavis people may well bend and bow
from god to god, set adrift in a cultureless city they cling to wreckage of the
past.

Xenophobia: Well look at India again, or the spread of Islam in Arabia. Jews
and Muslims got along fine until Zionism. Hindus and Muslims and Sikhs
alternate between total harmony and bloody genocide in India. Both are possible
scenarios depending on economic and social changes.

PS: I was lying.

Orlanth Rex!            tzunder@mettav.royle.org




- ---------------------

From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Pelorian Sorceror, etc
Message-ID: <01H3HLY85RNM90N085@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 28 Sep 93 12:37:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1854

clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther) writes:
> How would a young sorceror fit within Pelorian society? What cult or cults is
> he likely to belong to, if any?

Pelorian, you say... Well, first this is all IMO. And I frequently
spout nonsense out of failing to read the official books before I
write. So, take this with a bushel of bullsitch. 

He'd be in the Pelorian/Yelmic religion, though which cult depends on
family ties. Read Bryan's excellent post for my opinion on how his
loyalties would work.  I think he needs to forsake initiate status in
Yelm and the very useful DI chance in order to study sorcery.
Pelorians aren't Stygians or Carmanians---they don't believe that
sorcery and righteous living are as compatible as those outland
heretics think. I may be wrong on this. Nick? Oliver?

On a tangent, I think we need an official ruling on whether sorcery
and theism are incompatible in Glorantha for cultural reasons or
because of meta-physical reasons that do not vary from culture to
culture. For instance, if the sorceror transforms his alternate self
into a magical battery, and the theist uses the same alternate self to
make a personal god, and the shaman uses the same alternate self to
make his fetch, then we would have a meta-physical reason why
sorcerors can't also be initiates. Those few who accomplish both must
have gotten a second other self through some kind of hero quest. But
if there is no such meta-physical reason, then what keeps initiates
from also being sorcerors? Is it a cultural restriction? If we don't
get a ruling, then I forsee a creeping phenomenon where the arkati and
stygian heresy spread everywhere, and we finally have
runelord-priest-shaman-sorcerors in every single cult.

Regarding Sun-Domer convert using a Magasta cult-weapon by preference:
> My dilemma is:  is it "realistic" to expect the player to forego using the
> flail and instead use his cult weapon, the spear? Will he suffer any prejudice
> from other cult members if he uses the flail?

"You claim to worship the god of the sun and the distant sky and yet
when you're in a pinch you use the tools of the god of sogginess? I
think you've taken this Zola Fel association too far. Where exactly
are your loyalties, mister?"

> What is the Storm Bull dogma regarding sorcery?

According to Storm Khan Chugalug of the Bison tribe, "Don't like it.
Beat sorcerors up if you have a golden opportunity, or if you get
drunk and want to bloody your knuckles (or what have you), but
otherwise leave 'em alone until they prove their chaotic leanings. One
of those pansy Lhankor Mhy scribblers might have more in their Gods of
Glorantha doodlings."

whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller            internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work."        -- Ross Perot sound bite

- ---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: Re: Morality; Flailing; Sorcery; Spirit %
Message-ID: <199309282350.AA29478@radiomail.net>
Date: 28 Sep 93 23:50:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1855

>From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
>From reading Ken Rolston's comments on Gloranthan religion the other
>day, it seems to me he's associating religion with morality too much.
>As far as I understand it most Gloranthan religious practice seems
>utterly amoral, and concerned only with ritual.  A Wind Lord is no
>paladin; he is obligated to save the Ernalda Priestess from the chaos
>monster not becuase he's a good guy, or because it's the right thing
>to do, but because it re-enacts his god's actions.

I think you should re-read the "Responsibilities" section (KoS.248): "Among
us, we must always hold true to the Six Social Virtues: Honor, Provision,
Defense, Obedience, Justice, and Hospitality."

Furthermore, neither Wind Lords nor Ernalda Priestesses are typical members
of society (the entire Rune population can't be more than 5%, and is
probably less), and rules for their behavior shouldn't be extrapolated to
commoners.

>From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
>My dilemma is:  is it "realistic" to expect the player to forego using the
>flail and instead use his cult weapon, the spear?  Will he suffer any prejudice
>from other cult members if he uses the flail?

Unquestionably. This doesn't mean he shouldn't do it, but his men will call
him a "swinger" or "harvester" or whatever. And he'll have a harder time
becoming a Sun Lord...

>What is the Storm Bull dogma regarding sorcery?

I don't know the Storm Bull answer, but "sorcery" seems to be the term used
for "someone else's magic." "Evil sorcery" is redundant.

>From: mmlab!cookec%max@uunet.UU.NET (Kiliki)
>Ok, in the pregenerated PC's they list a % by spirit magic.  Is that % success
>at casting that particular spell?  chance to know a spell?  general chance of
>success for all spirit magic casting?  does it apply to the spirit magic
>taught buy cults as well or only that taught by Shammans?  and how is it
>calculated?

The chance of casting any spirit magic is POW*5%.


- ---------------------

From: glidedw@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Godzilla's Home Boy)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 28 Sep 1993, part 3
Message-ID: 
Date: 28 Sep 93 10:38:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1856

chris:

Shammanistic types can gain spirit spells at temples they associate with.
Planter cultures absorbed the shamans of old, as witness the North
american Hopi cultures. There are chalana Aroy shamans, Orlanth shamans,
etc. If Orlanth is on good relations with Waha, though I don't see why he
would be, then a shaman of waha can get spells there. A shaman by
definition is somebody, who with a fetch, doesn't *need* a temple. divine
spells are a Different story. I have generally permitted a shaman a %
chance equal to the fetch's POW times one, to find a spirit of that type
per hour of discorporation. Divine spell spirits can be found, and made to
give a single use. this can lead to problems, such as using a Healer spell
without cult permission, such as resurrect. complications can arise for
purely mundane reasons.



- ---------------------

From: glidedw@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Godzilla's Home Boy)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 28 Sep 1993, part 2
Message-ID: 
Date: 28 Sep 93 11:03:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1857

To clay Luther:

apprentice answers question on those uncouth barbzrian storm bulls, small
case intended.

Barbarians tend to feel that our magics cause proper thought on the
universe, and thusly they have great apprehension that we will stop them
from thinking idiot thoughts, and develope arational outlook on life. We
attempt this of course.  the general reaction is that we are bad, though
also enemies of chaos. while we might not be attacked in town, a lone
sorcerer on trek, might be considered fair game. Hence our proclivity for
Damage boosting on everything.

donald apprentice to Lord Sagon



- ---------------------

From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Looking for Dave Cheng on the net
Message-ID: <9309290356.AA23322@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 28 Sep 93 17:56:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1858


Dave, your email address is not recognized as existing.

NYU sends me the message "550 ... user unknown"

- ---------------------

From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: RuneQuest playtest/campaign in West Lafayette, IN.
Message-ID: <9309290354.AA23253@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 28 Sep 93 17:54:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1859

Well, I can't come to RQ-Con.  It's TOO damned far away for me to afford it.


As for "converting the heathens", here's a new twist:  I present RQ as being
"like D&D but simpler".  YES!  Simpler!  How so?  All skills use the same kind
of dice rolls.  There are NO tables to look up in play.  You don't have to 
worry about whether or not your "character class" can do a particular action,
since RQ doesn't have "character classes" to complicate things.

How "complex" a system is often depends upon one's point of view.

------- End of Forwarded Message