Bell Digest v931002p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 02 Oct 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

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From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: Re: evil sorcery
Message-ID: <199310010806.AA08278@radiomail.net>
Date: 1 Oct 93 08:06:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1884

>From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
>When the SB player asked me about it, I said his Khan said is was Bad
>Magic and sorcerors were evil and chaotic.  Months later when a player
>finally created a sorceror, the SB player began threatening to kill him
>(before the player was even done creating the character) since sorcery was
>chaos magic.  A heated argument erupted between me and the SB player, with
>him saying the first time the sorceror character cast a spell, the SB
>character would have to kill him and me saying that he was taking a much too
>narrow view of magic and how could expect to tell that sorcery was being used.
> He countered with it should be obvious...he is using "different" magic.  I
>countered with all cults use different magic and that the Storm Bull
>Bladesharp was different from the Humakti Bladesharp.

I think your error was saying that sorcery was chaotic. There's a
difference between chaos and evil, even to a Storm Bull. Frex, God Learners
were evil, but there's no evidence they were chaotic.

He probably could tell that the character was using different magic, but
not explicitly that it was sorcery (except by the definition that sorcery
is different magic...).

Intolerance is a difficult problem, and I think that's what the character's
expressing. "Small chaos is all chaos" isn't even necessarily a mainstream
Urox philosophy, and even if it is, all Storm Bulls hardly think and behave
the same. And intolerance has little place in a gaming group. The Storm
Bull doesn't have to trust the sorcerer (I can see him insisting on being
on the same watch at night), but Storm Bulls who rush to kill without
learning all the facts will get weeded out by natural selection...

>I hope I finally convinced the player that he would
>perceive sorcery has Bad Magic -- magic he would never accept -- and that he
>would certainly strongly dislike sorcerors, though not necessarily feeled
>compelled to kill them outright -- unless he was trully psychopathic.

Exactly.

David Dunham * Software Designer  *  Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net


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From: eosgg@raesp-farn.mod.uk (Geoff Gunner)
Subject: Spirit Plane
Message-ID: <9310011024.AA01332@raesp-farn.mod.uk>
Date: 1 Oct 93 10:24:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1885

Geoff Gunner here, folks ...

re. Greg Fried:
  ... reminds that animism holds that inanimate objects/places have spirits ...
Good thinking, Crimson-batman !  But isn't animism saying that a spirit is
choosing to reside in that rock / glade / grotto ?  (Hags, Nymphs, Oceanids,
etc surely are spirits of a non-living thing associated with a living thing)
But how do they appear on the spirit plane ?  And for that matter, how do
people appear on the spirit plane ?  I mean, we all have spirits/souls, but
they only appear on the SP once dead/discorporated/dreaming.

This is a nasty point.  Now, I've always seen people`s spirits as existing on
the spirit plane at the same time, which I think's the implicit assumption
of RQ.  I've tried to explain some of the sticky points that arise from this
as:

1) A spirit is either on the spirit plane (discorporate) and sees only the SP,
or is 'attached' to the material plane (living, etc) and now can only see
the MP.

2) The appearence of an entity on the SP is a feedback process - it needs to
be able to perceive itself in order to maintain its appearence.  Thus if it's
`attached' this process stops, and there is no longer an appearance on the SP.
This means that roving SP spirits can't attack the 'attached' spirit.  A spirit
has to use 'visibility' to 'attach' itself to the Material Plane.

3) Life *IS* spirit.  A creature is not living without a spirit.  Thus, a rock
with an associated guardian spirit can be said to be 'alive' - destroy the rock and it's 'dead',  and returns to the SP.  Hence your 'genius loci', the spirit
of a place; the Hag, Nymph, etc.

4) And then there are the 'undead', which fall into three categories:
   Haunts; 'attached' spirits without a body - the archetypal ghost
   Possessors; 'attached' to a once-dead body - ghouls and zombies.
   'Soul-less'; once dead bodies without a spirit - the Vampire !
	(I've always been really uneasy about the V.; doesn't INT need a spirit?
	 SO I would say that Vampires *do* have a spirit, but it's being
	 contantly drained into the void (see CoT), hence their need to drain
	 MP else annihalation occurs.  No resting in coffins for centuries for
	 *MY* vampires - it's a tough world out there for them !)


And Greg's point that the Spirit and Hero planes being the same - YES !  But
more that a god has a 'domain' in the spirit plane, full of it's own dead
worshippers, avatars, etc.  This ties in nicely with a *LOT* of mythology -
look at Nordic stuff, for instance.

And another point - what determines size on the spirit plane ?  Can POW be
correlated with SIZ ?  Else you could get an entire multiverse on the head of
a (spiritual) pin!  

Sayanara, Folks !
Geoff.

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From: glidedw@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Godzilla's Home Boy)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 01 Oct 1993, part 2
Message-ID: 
Date: 30 Sep 93 21:32:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1886

Greg Fried:

i like the idea of sacrificing to the meta pantheon to buy one use from
any one diety, and general power to a specific diety, for what you need
when you need it. An acolyte who has reusable power, would get reusable
versions of the cult specific spells. A Rune Lord or priest is then
noticable for reusable "any kind" divine spell. This creates the ability
of people to value meta-pantheons. An Orlanth could have Resurrection, but
only one use, unless taking the healer vow. That Healer, who takes the
vow, has whatever they need, from a pool of POW. The pool is available for
DI. I might even permit a value of acolytes to have 1.5 times the points
for DI, *if* it is in the interests of the diety, who needs that person
acting inside of time.



---------------------

From: ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de
Subject: "SPIRIT ANSWERS, SOLAR QUESTIONS, AND DRAGON PASS PROJECT"
Message-ID: <5286*_S=ngl28_OU=rz_PRMD=uni-kiel_ADMD=dbp_C=de_@MHS>
Date: 1 Oct 93 16:07:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1887

I still don't hold with POW deterioration for spirits. One reason is the 
almost non-existant difference between outer spirit plane and god-plane, as 
someone pointed out in today's daily. If shamans regularly visit (and 
presumably raid) the god-plane via the spirit plane, the borders most be 
gradual (I doubt that even Blueface would dare to confront a deity like 
Yelmalio/Antirius face to face, except on mythical terms - i.e. on a 
heroquest, with sufficient limitations for the actions of the deity, 
produced by the ritual reenactment.)

So the main worry with non-deteriorating POW for spirits is that the older 
spirits get gross? Easy to handle: don't allow spirits with no ties to a 
living being, i.e. the mundane world, a POW check. (The (RQ3) rules are 
qquite diffuse on the matter of POW checks for spirit combat anyway: if 
both sides win one round, and then break off, will both have earned their 
check?) The only discorporate spirits to get POW checks would be fetches of 
_living_ shamans, allied spirits, or spirits (permanently) dominant 
possessing a living being.
(Might work for ghoul spirits with dead bodies, too...)

Where would this lead? The weaker spirits would be captured and enslaved by 
stronger ones, or make it to their mythic origin (like the beast deities) 
and enter a new cycle of life.

Gross spirits would need worship or gifts of POW to increase their POW. 
Treat each worship received as you would a POW-check for characters, with 
the flat 5% chance (does this rule come from RQ2?) of success.

What kinds of spirit would one encounter?

In the frontier zone of the spirit plane, the spirits of the recently 
deceased start on their way outwards, ducking predating spirits. The 
predators lurk there just for this reason, to be able to catch (and 
enslave) the less lucky ones.

Beasts butchered with the use of Peaceful Cut would make their way directly. 
What about deaths occuring by natural forces like predator animals? Do the 
predator animal deities provide the equivalent to peaceful cut for their 
offspring? In that case the only animal spirits to be encountered 
would be those of beasts killed by unnatural predators (like civilized 
humans, although these might have their food procuring deities perform 
similar services, without their being aware of it), disease or old age, the 
latter extremely unlikely. (Plant spirits in the presence of Aldryami would 
be treated in a similar way.)

For sentients the Peaceful Cut would be replaced by a proper burial ritual.

Another kind of spirits may be created when dreams go wild. These spirits 
(like emotion spirits) become a reality on the spirit world, if the dreamer 
perceives them as real enough. (The differencce between humans and dragons 
is not the facct that their dreams manifest, but only where they manifest). 
To get powerful entities of this kind, assume that some predator (like 
ghoul spirits) capture the dream/emotion, and rob their emotion power - 
similar to learning spirit magic in RQ3. (Dreams going wild: remember your 
last attack of high fever, and you'll know what I mean. Some drugs induce 
similar states of mind...)


Someone asked after the why for ghoul spirits. I see them as especially 
malign or desparate spirits of mortals (possibly of a cult like Gark the 
Calm or Zorak Zoran, both with an easygoing attitude to undead) who crave 
an embodied existance so much they'd even feed on corpses. They might also 
be a sidebranch of Vivamort, since the hunger rune most certainly is 
involved, possibly Vivamort cultists who failed transformation into 
Vampires and now make the best out of their afterlife.

Solar questions:

How do the Teshnans, another extremely solar orientated culture on 
Genertela, interpret the reascension of the sun at the Dawn? Do they share 
the Orlanthi/western point of time, or the Dara Happan?

And: If the Dara Happans are right, oughtn't we change the term "Solar 
Time" into something else? How do the Dara Happans count the years when no 
Lunar official oversees them?

Did the lesser Darkness have no light, or was there a deity of the winter 
sun, like Elmal, Antirius or Yelmalio, to shed meager light? How is the story 
told in Pamaltela, was there a time of cold (after Qualyorni aka Moorgarki 
was defeated), or was there a time of heat (when the Artmali empire 
perished, and the fiery Nargan desert replaced the sea of Glorantha's first 
Lunar Empire)?

Did the Greater Darkness only start when Orlanth wasn't there to protect 
Elmal (Yelmalio, Antirius, whomever) against Zorak Zoran, who slew/mortally 
wounded what remained of the sun and made the darkness complete?

The Western tales of the Darkness mention the ice age, no chaos. Do they 
give reasons for the sudden change in climate? Did they see a sun then? 
What does Sog City's university library tell us?

And at last a semi-announcement:
I'm currently working on a hex-grid map for Central Genertela, 
for use with Dragon Pass boardgame rules. So far I've included/guesstimated:

Dragon Pass (boardgame map, slight changes on the north-eastern border wrt 
forests, based on Troll Pak), 
Prax (Nomad Gods map, reinterpreted after the map in Cults of Prax/RQ2), 
Balazar, Elder Wilds (the hex-grid from the GW-version's inlay maps, 
enlarged by 128%), 
Dagori Inkarth (from RQ3 Troll Pak, overlapping with Dragon Pass and Nomad 
Gods, various mismatches wrt distances, but more detail), 
Choralinthor Bay (the Dragon Pass maps from RQ2 and the Home of the Bold 
booklet, and the maps from King of Sartar, which don't agree with the maps 
in Genertela Book), 
and Northern Tarsh/Eastern Imther (bordering on the maps mentioned above).

I'm still looking for reliable maps with sufficient detail, especially 
southern and western Maniria, the western part of the wastes (Hidden 
Greens, Rockwood Mountains), and (all of) Peloria.

(Heortland, Hendrikiland and the Shadow Plateau were/are especially tricky, 
since the different maps give conflicting places for major features like 
Whitewall, the Hills of Lead and the shorelines of God Forgot and south 
of Prax.)

Was there ever a map for "Masters of Luck and Death" (the boardgame)?

Once I'll have done the maps, I'll start with the pieces. As base 
information I'm going to try and use the population estimations given in 
Genertela Book, and the sections about notable persons etc. for some of the 
special units. Generally I'd like to include more physical magic for 
western types.

Any help and information is highly appreciated. If things work out, I'll 
present the result at Convulsions 94, and (before) at the German RuneQuest 
Con (at Pentecost).

Anyone else on the net actively trying/interested in trying to expand Dragon 
Pass? We might even start our own sub-list ;-)


-- Joerg Baumgartner
joe@sartar.toppoint.de   or   ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de
Email me (at joe@sartar...) for information on German RuneQuest events, the 
"Deutsche RuneQuest-Gesellschaft e.V" and Free INT, the German RQ Zine.

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From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann)
Subject: Protective Circle
Message-ID: <9310011411.AA28410@cabell.vcu.edu>
Date: 1 Oct 93 14:11:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1888

My good fellow Digesters,

I am the developer for the next RQ scenario pack, Strangers in 
Prax. One of the sections of this book deals with a Malkioni 
wizard from Nolos. He comes to Pavis, meets a mixed 
reception, and generates a variety of adventures. 

In part, this magus is being presented as an example of how to 
work around the problems of RQ III sorcerers. However, in 
writing it, I have come up hard against a specific problem with 
the Protective Circle spell description.

In essence, that spell description is nonsensical. As Martin Crim 
puts it "if that language was in a legal contract, the contract 
would be invalid." Here's the section causing me delays, from 
the Magic Book page 49:

"When completed, the Protective Circle will encompass an area 
equal to the square of  the spell's intensity in cubic meters."

Now, it is possible to squeeze meaning out of the description, 
but it is not likely that everyone will squeeze the same 
meaning. For example, what is the shape of the circle in three 
dimensions? I always thought of it as a hemisphere, but 
another game group full of bright people think of it as a 
cylinder with a height = radius. Perhaps it is a cone (like the 
Law rune)? 

There is another problem. The quote above mixes apples and 
camshafts in that "an area" is technically a measure of well, 
AREA, that is: length X width or pi R squared. However, the 
unit of measure for that area is given in cubic meters, which is 
a measure of VOLUME.

Next there are questions of game balance. Since Pro Circle must 
be Multispelled with some sort of Resist spell, there is no 
reason except MP total to have a big, low intensity circle, or a 
small, high intensity one. Maybe that's not a major point. 

However, it seems VERY difficult to get a reasonable size 
protective circle, compared to the amount of work necessary to 
get a large Damage Boost or some such. Of course, that all 
depends on how the GM interprets the difficult language 
quoted above.....

Further, there is no clear ruling on whether or not the radius 
(or outer limit, whatever) of the Circle may extend outside of 
the radius of the object it is cast on. Again, my gaming group 
never thought of this, but Michael O'brien's did, and he had 
something like force fields up around his characters. 

I can't support that idea (that Circle effects extend beyond the 
radius of the object it is cast on. Here's why:
 
Hang a chair from a rope a few meters off the ground. Cast a 
Prot Circle + Resist Damage 10 with a radius of a meter or so on 
it. We'll beg the question of what happens to the rope. Now, 
lower the chair until it is a meter or so off the ground. What 
happens when the Resist Damage circle touches the ground? 
The ground is not generating any damage to the Circle. It seems 
to me that the chair must, therefore, float off the ground at the 
radius of the Circle.

I hope everyone will agree that this is a Bad Thing.

So, why am I bringing this up? Just to complain? Thankfully, 
no. I get to publish errata for Protective Circle! The question is, 
what will it be? I solict your comments and fixes.

Here's my suggestion. First, Rewrite the quote above:

"When completed, the Protective Circle forms a hemisphere 
with a radius equal to the   the spell's intensity in meters. The 
flat plane of the hemisphere follows the plane of the inscribed 
circle."

Note that with this, you don't have to figure out any squares. 
Then continue:

"If the spell is cast upon the ground, it cannot be moved. If cast 
on a wagon bed, it will move as the wagon moves, etc. 
Regardless of the intensity of the Protective Circle, the 
maximum radius of the spell cannot exceed the inscribed radius 
on the object having the spell cast on it (wagon, floor, cloak, 
tower, etc.) 
Further, the inscribed raduis of the Circle must be 
approximately circular, with no variations greater than 1% of 
its radius, and it must actually be inscribed before the spell can 
be cast. There is nothing necessarily fancy about the inscription; 
any good circle will do."

Thus, sorcerers must draw their Protective Circle out, just as 
magicians had to for pentagrams or whatever in other fantasy 
examples. I like this effect. Before the magician can cast the 
protective spell to save the wagon train, he has to go scurrying 
out around it with his wand, dragging a circle into the dirt and 
planning it to miss any trees in the way.

So what do you think? Yes, I realize that my rewrite of the size 
makes Circles bigger, but I think the size was too small in most 
interpretations of the old one. It also has several new crocks.

M >|<


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From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: illumination and hyena shins
Message-ID: <9310011827.AA14915@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 1 Oct 93 18:27:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1889

Interesting coincidence. An Etyries player character just bought some
hyeana skins, with the intent to sneak them into a sale to an Issaries.

Robert McArthur:
>>  I think it's because Ettyries, to gain the spells and benefits of Issaries,
>>  had to go on a hero/god-quest and followed in Issaries footsteps for everything
>>  Issaries did.  Except that Ettyries was Illuminated while doing so.  Thus,
>>  every stricture except for those relating to chaos that Issaries has, Ettyries
>>  has.

joerg:
>>  Your Illumination reasoning doesn't work, why else could illuminated 
>>  Humakti or Yelmalions ignore their geasa without negative consequences, 
>>  which have nothing to do with chaos?
>>  
>>  A possible explanation to this might be that while Etyries WAS 
>>  illuminated, this priest wasn't, so that he has to follow the 
>>  strictures his deity could ignore.


If interpreted loosely, this could also imply than until illuminated, 
a worshipper of Yanafal Tarnils, could not be resurrected; a Irripi
Ontor priest would have to wear a beard, etc.

Better to say that he was a member of some Etyries subcult, or had been an
Issaries until he coinverted, or that this was not one of the "improvements" 
of Etyries, than to pin such things on illumination.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: PenDragon Pass
Message-ID: 
Date: 1 Oct 93 19:18:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1890

GF here.

David:
Yes, do post your traits rules from PenDragon Pass, lest we who are ignorant
embarass ourselves yet again!

Hey, here's a question based in pure idle curiosity: are there ANY
female readers of the Daily out there?

GF out.

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From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: not again
Message-ID: 
Date: 1 Oct 93 21:43:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1891

GF again.

Sorry to bring up the issue of sheep-mounts again, but you all should check
out p. 10 of Ral Partha's 1993 catalogue: Dwarf cavalry mounted on ... you
guessed it -- ferocious bull merinos!  Kinda makes you wonder what's going on
at Dwark Knoll oasis....

Ral Partha has a lot of servicable RQ figurines.  There's even a pair of tusk
riders!  You can get a catalogue by calling 1-800-543-0272.  They take orders
over the phone, and when I asked, they were willing to break up their sets of
six identical historical figurines and sell just one.  Many of the Greek and
Roman and other ancient historicals are good for the Gloranthan setting. 
They have Aztecs too (someone mentioned an Aztec campaign).