From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 12 Oct 1993, part 2 Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM Precedence: junk The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld) --------------------- From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: Spirit instincts; spirit battles Message-ID: <9310111049.AA24223@condor> Date: 11 Oct 93 10:49:15 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1966 Steven E Barnes said: >>[BTW I think bunny spirits would be as non-aggressive as corporeal bunnies:-)] > >Unless you are a grass spirit... This made me wonder: do animal spirits (fixed INT creatures) have instincts about how to deal with the spirit plane? Mundane bunnies instinctively eat grass; mundane foxes instinctively eat bunnies etc. But would their spirits know how to deal with the process of survival on the spirit plane? Obviously the mechanics of hunting/foraging are very different on the SP (although we're not quite sure how they work yet:). Do you think animals would have appropriate instincts for indulging in spirit combat? For that matter, do Gloranthan animals *have* instincts? Or are they just divinely inspired to do their thang by the appropriate deity? Joerg Baumgartner: >CW>I'm not sure of the mechanics >CW>for multiple spirit combats. Anyone got any ideas? > >Spirit combat as it is now (in RQ3) consists of two opponents casting >automatic MP-Disruptions at each other for no MP-cost. A bit dull, but >there are people who don't think that skill is involved in anything >magical. If you take this example, there are several people in each >party casting disruptions at members of the opponent's party. Resolve >the spirit combat like you would this magical conflict. Yeah, I thought about massed spirit combat some more. I see three main ways it could work: 1) You can attack one opponent but defend against many (all). (This is basically how you describe it above, simulating spell combat. It's certainly the obvious way of resolving multiple spirits combats). Using this method a big spirit is *always* going to win against an army of small spirits. 2) You can attack one opponent and only defend against one. Extra opponents get free attacks. (More like physical combat). This gives multiple attackers a huge advantage. 3) You can somehow split your defence (and possibly your attack) between several opponents. (Like highly skilled physical combat). Multiple attackers have an advantage, but a powerful entity can stand alone against several less powerful entities. I think I like this best. Using the current (boring) spirit combat rules I would simulate this by saying a person can split their POW in defence (and in attack, why not?) between several opponents. eg. Shaman (POW 19) and Assistant (POW 14) tag-team against a big ghost (POW 35). The ghost must decide how to split its POW between opponents. Say it decides to defend with 20 vs the shaman, and 15 vs the assistant and elects to go all-out in attack (30) vs the puny assistant in the hope of taking him out quickly. Obviously this makes the number of creatures more significant than the power of individuals. Unfortunately it means that multiple ghosts would tend to massacre most PC parties (assuming they gang up on one target). But I think it would make the political structure of the SP more interesting because there would be great motivation for banding together. Maybe that's not a good enough reason... (I suppose you could make an arbitrary rule which states that combat between corporeal creatures and disembodied spirits must be one-on-one. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to come up with a spiritualogical excuse for this, and it would be fairer on the PCs:-). 4) (For the sake of completeness). You can attack all opponents and defend against all opponents. This would mean gross spirits reign supreme. ___ CW. --------------------- From: d6mikan@dtek.chalmers.se (Mikael Andersson) Subject: HELP Message-ID: <9310111209.AA06051@hackes.dtek.chalmers.se> Date: 11 Oct 93 14:06:30 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1967 Where to find back issues? --------------------- From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk Subject: Spirit plane stuff Message-ID: <9310111631.aa12765@uk.ac.ed.castle> Date: 11 Oct 93 15:31:24 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1968 Although the discussions on the nature of the spirit plane, it's relationship to the mundane and hero planes, etc have been quite interesting, there have also been some very large chunks of irrelevant musings on stuff which is realy just pointless to contemplate. The spirit combat and POW gain rules are onlt there to adequately simulate such things from a PC perspective. As such they are perfectly reasonable and fair. The only problem occurs when one of the players is a shaman, then the loose ends of the system start showing up and a bit more detail could be used. What the spirit combat and POW gain rules were NOT designed to do, is provide and accurate and extensible, robust simulation of the daily goings on in the spirit plane. Is it surprising that there are anomalies when we try to use it for this purpose? No! ..... Do I care? No! When my players start regularly interfering in the affairs of 1000 POW spirits, then I will start worrying about it. Untill then the detailed mechanics of such a spirit's virtual metabolism are utterly irrelevant. RQ does not have game mechanics for the effects of eating crunchy nut cornflakes with added vitamins and minerals every breakfast on my character's fatigue, so why should it have long term detailed rules on the metabolisms of spirits. BTW. About spirit combats between high-POW spirits (or any high stats). Who ever said the characteristic sacale in RQ is linear? Look at the SIZ chart. The difference between SIZ 5 and SIZ 6 is much less than the difference between SIZ 50 and SIZ 51. A spirit with POW 1000 might actualy be twice as big as a spirit with POW 990. RQ is only a very rough simulation of the real Gloranthan world. Many things which are perfectly feasible in Glorantha are utterly impossible to simulate using the RQ rules directly. Many things possible in RQ are at best unlikely or difficult in Glorantha. I use the rules to adjudicate situations where the PCs are directly affected. If I have a duel going on between two foreign sorcerers, in which the PCs are not directly participating, anything goes. I will describe what happens as a bystander in Glorantha would see it. I would never even mention POW, MPs, even specific spells. After all, people will not talk about MPs and POW any more than we talk about HPs and fatigue points in the real world. ie POW and MPs are not absolutes, they are probably abstractions of a number of related factors. We don't use fractional MPs because it would be inconvenient, but POW and MPs are no more quantised than other nebulous concepts such as STR, DEX and APP. (Oh look, that girl is exactly 10% prettier with that makeup on! (APP rises from 10 to 11)). Please, people, I think you are all taking the rules a little too seriously. I am fully in favour of good ideas about what the spirit plane is like, and some good material has come from this discussion thread. But try thinking about what you want the spirit plane to be like, then propose rules for it. Extrapolating solely from the current rules is futile. My own view is that the spirit plane and mundane plane are quite distinct. When a spirit casts visibility it 'phases out' of the spirit plane and can't be got at from it, the same goes for bound spirits. Otherwise we would all get frequent spirit plane encounters coming at us from nowhere. These are distinct planes, any other interpretation means that vast numbers of spirits are immediately all arround us, but are just invisible. Second Sight must threfore just give more informaion about visible spirits, perhaps allowing us to see spirits 'through' walls and such as well. P.S. I realy liked Colin Watson's real time / god time chart. That is a neat way of modeling the relationship. Simon Hibbs. --------------------- From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther) Subject: Storm Bull Anecdote Number 1 Message-ID: <199310111914.AA02631@cool.vortech.com> Date: 11 Oct 93 09:14:55 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1969 "Fatty Rustypike needs your help, eh? A little trickery he cannot stomach?" Carver chuckled inwardly. The initiate, who lay flat on the temple floor before his kahn, dared to look up. "I wanted to ask my kahn how the Great Urox looked upon such...trickery." Carver Seven-Faces-Severed sat down on the temple floor. "Sit up and listen." "Trickery is a dangerous thing and many gods fear it. He-Who-Wields-Death hates Trickery because Trickery stole his Sword from him. He has foresworn Trickery since. Great Urox has been tricked many times, though he always beats up the Trickster in the end. But Great Urox does not foreswear Trickery like his Once-Brother. Great Urox has himself Tricked many times. He is a good learner.I will tell you of Urox's First Trick. Listen and learn. "Urox and Eiritha once lived on the edges of Genert's Garden in a wonderful cottage. They had many herds and plenty of water. Urox guarded the edge of the Garden from enemies. "One day Trickster, who had just been kicked out of Genert's House for stitching Genert's nostrils together while He slept, decided to go see his cousin Urox and his beautiful wife, mostly because he was hungry and needed a place to sleep, but also because he liked to play with the children and teach them nasty Tricks to play on their parents. On the way to the cottage he spied a wasp nest dripping with honey. Though he dearly wanted the honey, he feared to climb the tree to get the nest since the wasps would surely sting him. But he devised a Trick to get it, remembered where the nest was, and went on to Urox's cottage. "Urox smelled Trickster coming and charged over the hill to meet him. 'Go away!' he bellowed at his cousin, 'Do not come near my house!' "'But sweet 'cuz,' pleaded Trickster, 'I only want to say hello to the Bravest Warrior in my family and his beautiful wife, and to play with his children, who I miss greatly. Let me say hello to you all and see that you live in good health so that when I arrive at Orlanth's camp I can tell him only good news about you.' "But Urox still said no. 'You only want to steal my wife's butter or teach my children Bad Tricks, most likely. Go away and leave us alone.' "Eiritha had come out after Urox. She said to him 'Oh husband, remember your Brother's Words of Hospitality. Don't treat little Eurmal so badly. Bring him to the house with kindness and I will give him some milk. Then you may send him on his way.' "'Very well, then.' said Urox. 'You may come to the house for milk, but then you must be on your way.' They walked back to the cottage and Eiritha poured them all some fresh milk. "'Your milk is very fine, mistress.' said Trickster, 'Did you know that Lord Genert drinks his milk with a spoonful of honey? I tried it last time I was there and it is very good. Would you have some honey, mistress, so that I could drink this fine milk after the manner of your Lord?' "Eiritha checked the cupboard, but could not find any honey. 'Oh dear,' she said, 'I appear to be out of honey. I am very sorry.' "But the Trickster only smiled hugely, for his Trick might work. 'Oh, that is completely understandable. Honey is very hard to come by. It takes a very brave man to steal it from the wasps. I completely understand.' "'She would have honey if I could find some, cousin! Mere wasps could not keep me from their honey!' shouted Urox. "'Of course, cousin, of course!' replied Trickster, 'I knew that was the case here. Well, my milk is done, for it was tasty and I always eat quickly, so I must be going. Urox, my brave cousin, would you walk me to the edge of your land?' "After kissing Eiritha on the hand and patting all the children (who were all very sad to see their Uncle leave so soon) on the head, Trickster left with Urox. While they walked to the edge of Urox's land, Trickster said 'Cousin, I know where you can get some honey for your wife. I saw a huge nest, dripping with honey, nearby the stream that flows between those hills. Go and get your wife some honey, with my thanks.' Then he hugged his cousin and left. "Urox thought about Trickster's suggestion and decided it was a good idea. He followed Trickster's directions and soon found the nest. What Urox didn't know was that Trickster had followed him and hid in the bushes. Urox climbed the tree and yelled at the wasps. "'Hey there, wasps! It is Urox, come for your honey. Do not sting me or I will get angry and smash you!" "The wasps had heard of Urox and were so frightened that they hid inside the nest and didn't come out to sting him. Urox plucked the nest from the tree and put it in his honey pot. But as he climbed down the tree, he smelled the Trickster waiting for him. He stopped on a high branch to think. He looked into the pot and said 'Hey now, you wasps in there, come out of your nest or I'll burn you out.' The wasps, who were still very frightened, came out of the nest and gathered in the pot. Urox then took the nest out, still filled with honey, and hung it on the tree again. He climbed down to the bottom and said very loudly 'Oh my! I am so tired from all this climbing. I will take a nap and set this pot of honey next to me while I sleep so no one will dare steal it!' "Urox lay down and went to sleep, with the pot next to him. Trickster, who had been hiding all this time, crept out of the bushes, stole the pot, and ran away dancing and singing to himself 'I Tricked my stupid bull-headed cousin again! I Tricked him again!' "When Trickster was far away from Urox, he opened the pot, saying 'I'm going to eat all this honey in one gulp!' Without looking at all, he poured the wasps into his mouth and swallowed them all in one gulp. The wasps didn't like Trickster's hospitality and stung him inside. 'Och! Och! I've been Tricked!' he screamed as he ran around looking for something to get the wasps out. He tried sticking a twig down his throat, but that only made the wasps more angry. He tried eating a frog, but the wasps stung the frog and it jumped out of his mouth. He tried swallowing smoke, but the wasps climbed down to his feet and the smoke only turned his hair grey. He couldn't find anything to rid himself of the wasps so he gave up. Eventually the wasps settled down and built a nest in there and started making honey. Trickster has had all the honey he could want, and more some. Trickster doesn't like honey anymore. "Urox brought home the nest full of honey and made his wife very happy. Waha was made that night. "And whenever Urox meets Trickster now, he gives his cousin a tight hug and a hard slap on the back." -- Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com Macintosh Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant. --------------------- From: nh0g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nils Hammer) Subject: Spirit Plane ++ Message-ID:Date: 11 Oct 93 13:35:02 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1970 I like people's ideas about the spirit plane, but It should certainly have a more complex terrain than a surface map of Gorantha. I think of it as a "hypertext". In addition to the choice of moving away from your farm towards the woods, you could move along the path of "cowness" towards the spirit-source of all cows. Or through the hearth fire towards the spirit-center of the fire rune, from there you then come out at some other fire. This lets you take huge shortcuts around glorantha if you can see the connections and know how to follow them. The innocent who does not know what they are doing will probably follow one of these paths by mistake and get horribly lost. I also think that the terrain does not have the same shape as glorantha. I was inspired many years ago by a National Geographic article that had distorted maps of the world according to national oil production and oil consumption. I envision an ancient forest in the mundane plane as being many times larger on the spirit plane. Likewise the "dead place" where magic does not work is probably one small unpleasant spot on the spirit plane. When traveling on the spirit plane consider the runic affiliations (if any) of the travelers. and the mundane skills they have. Movement should be easier within a place you can claim affiliation with, and more difficult if you have a runic opposition. ex: Seeing that the spirit-plane adventure party is surrounded by broo, the orlanthi initiate says "follow me" and climbs up on a rock. Reciting orlanthi stories he feels around for a wind. Finding one he walks onto the air, holds hands with his comrades and says Run! Mundane skills, even ones not written on the character sheet, could be used to base your spirit-plane navigation. Hunters may be familiar with the woods, and if they are decent, they will not be on bad terms with prey animals. ex: Clio the whip lady, a sorceress and party girl, has been dumped in the center of spirit-plain Beast-ness by a jealous trickster during a dream. Confused by the environment, she asks the GM to let her roll against her INT (18)x3 to recognize anything costing 1 MP per try. Eventually she recognizes cows. Aha! she grew up on a farm. She does things cows like, reciting her good memories of cows. This lets her follow them to the center of cow-ness. Here she bargains for help, expending MPs while doing whatever constitutes cow-care. Her new cow-spirit guide hears from her about the cows she thinks are closest to her mundane plane body. Once in the neighborhood, she can say goodby to the cows and find her way to her own body by straight navigation. Waking up from a bad dream, she finds that she has been dressed in a cow costume and can't find the fasteners. Now, I understand that my blatherings here are not a system. I just want to emphasize that the spirit-plane should be different from the mundane plane. Nils K. Hammer --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: Short Takes Message-ID: <9310112145.AA10716@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 11 Oct 93 21:45:39 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1971 Paul Reilly here. I will have to write about the Spirit Plane later, it is too extensive for me to deal with right now. Suffice to say that I think people should go look up "Shamanism" in the library and check out some books which describe what shamans say about the spirit plane; it is not much like most of the descriptions I have seen either officially or on the list. (But there have been some very good ideas batted around on the list...) I do tend to think that a fibre bundle is a fairly good model for the Gloranthan universe. The geometry of the bundle is complicated, but one slice through it is the mundane plane. Now find every fire on the mundane plane and mark the fibres at those points. Follow those fibres up to the 'God Plane' and you will find that they all run into Aether, the Source of Fire. MOre on this is there is interest... Some comments on other things: Clay luther writes: >Maybe next week the Storm Bull player will throw away his axe and start >wrestling everything he meets, subsequently pounding them with rocks and his >bare hands??? This happened in our campaign, it was the origin of the Chaos Killing Rock, a mighty weapon of Bruce the Storm Bull. Ordinary weapons were too fragile to contain his Rage... Actually this was a very special rock, it was a fragment of an iron-bearing rock which fell from the Sky World. It had a certain amount of 'heroic' potential which was channeled into Chaos killing by the way Bruce used it. ---- Respone to Mike Dawson (or is it Kirsten?) Protective Circle: This is a Sorcery spell that actually seems to have some connection to real-world medieval magic. Triangles were also popular. If you want to encourage circles make the circumference/perimeter of the figure protected depend on the Intensity, that way the maximum area that can be protected by a given Intensity is achieved if the figure is a circle. Interesting how parallel developments on different worlds might be motivated differently: on Earth we went from square to round towers because it was relatively easy to damage the corners of square towers with siege weapons and early cannon. On Glorantha it would be to make best use of defensive magic. ------------- About physics on Glorantha: Obviously the underlying physics is quite different. I maintain that Glorantha's underlying reality is more on what we call the God Plane and that the surface appearance is derived. I also think of GLorantha as a sort of self-maintaining dreamworld, as opposed to say Earth's Dreamlands which are constantly maintained from our Universe. Obviously Glorantha had a strong connection with Earth's Dreamlands at some point. Evidence for this includes the remarkable correspondence of flora, fauna, culture, geography, etc. Compare the myth of Aether and Umath with the Sumerian myth of Enlil and An. ( I should write a paper about this sometime) Myths about dragons probably ran the other way - dragons live in the Void but use worlds such as Glorantha as nest sites to incubate their young. Worlds like ours are too rigid - Glorantha is a good nest site because it is far enough out in the Void to serve as a training ground for Void navigation. Young dragons learn to manipulate Gloranthan 'reality' at deeper and deeper levels, starting with the 'dragon magic' of dragonnewts and proceeding through the phenomena such as Dream Dragons. Even the full dragons of Glorantha are fledglings by true Dragon standards - compare the abilities of the dragons we see to those shown in the Dragonkill War. Once a dragon is able to project a 'dream' dragon equal to itself, it is ready to go off into the Void. Humans can also manipulate the dream-fabric of Glorantha, either through massed will or individual striving. Thus cults and magic. Sorcery depends on learning to 'leverage' your power by drawing on the greater powers of the Universe. These have predictable patterns oof response, forming the natural laws of Glorantha.