From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 18 Oct 1993, part 2
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
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---------------------
From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: Mixed Bag
Message-ID: <9310151643.aa00418@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 15 Oct 93 15:43:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2021
Colin Watson writes :
___
>BTW, is anyone else concerned about how crap 1-H swords are in RQ? You can
>get a 1-H spear (which is near identical to a broadsword in game terms) for
>a fraction of the cost. The only advantage I can see is the ability to
>damage other weapons when you parry: but who ever parries with a 1-H sword?
>It makes me wonder how swords ever became popular historically. Shouldn't
>they have more AP at least?
----
I think swords were more popular than spears for several reasons. First, they
are much easier to learn how to use effectively. Spears can only thrust and
axes can only cut, swords can do both. Also, even if you have a shield, it
is useful to be able to block with your weapon as well. Swords have no
minimum range like spears, once you get inside a spear wielder's guard there
is nothing he can do, similarly for axes which need space to swing. Swords can
be carried more conveniently than either spears or axes and can be prepared
quickly anyway. Of course, how you could weigh these factors into the game
is a moot point. The fact that all Barbarian Belt (Theyalan/Orlanthi)
characters get a base 30% in 1H Sword attack and parry is a bit tempting
(Genertela pack players book).
Clay Luther writes :
----
>GMs are not God Learners.
>Munchkins, Anal Retentives, and Power Gamers are God Learners.
----
Agreed. All God Learners should be bannished forever to the RQIV list!
Then we can concentrate on simple, usable rules just where they are needed.
The POW/MP log scale debate is interesting, but no new rules are realy
necessery. Perhaps the substance of MPs is naturaly unstable when concentrated
together in one point and requires logarithmicaly more POW to stabilise it
as the quantity of MPs increase linearly (Like similarly charged particles
which mutualy repell and require exponentialy increasing force to contain).
By the way, RQII stated that only POW above 18 could be sacrificed for rune
magic. Perhaps this was because only the points of POW over 18 were a large
enough quantity of POW to do the job.
Furthermore the fact that stats are multiplied by 5% to give a saving throw
(eg the POWx5% chance to cast spirit magic) does NOT imply a linear scale,
far from it. Think about it in terms of the change in your chance of failing
the roll. An increase from 50% to 55% only decreases the actual chance of
failing by 1 in 10. An increase from 80% to 85% decreases your chance of
failing by 1 in 4, a much bigger change in the actual odds involved. An
increase from 90% to 95% HALVES your chance of failing the roll!
This is a common misconception amongst many players and GMs. Linear modifiers
to skills also have very non-linear effects on the actual odds of various
outcomes. Overall the modifiers which are given in RQ3 are very well thought
out though, a sensible mix of linear and proportional modifiers.
Simon Hibbs
---------------------
From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: Humakti != Berserk
Message-ID: <9310151856.AA03209@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 15 Oct 93 18:56:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2022
>> From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
>> X-RQ-ID: 1955
>>
>> Thanks to everyone for informing me of the ToTRM updated Humakt write-
>> up; however, it doesn't change my opinion that allowing the Berserk
>> spell is an error (just because the RQ Gods wrote it, well, everything Greg
>> says is wrong, right?) The moment when you expect to face your god up
>> close is not the time to change the habits of a lifetime, namely, com-
>> mitment to self-discipline, unemotionalness, and precision swordplay.
Berzerk, as typified by Zorak Zorani is used for mindless, senseless butchery.
This doesn't fit my perception of Humakti, Yanafal Tarnils worshippers, et al.
( I don't see them with big drooling problems... )
I would suggest one of the following patches:
1. Delete Berzerk from the Humakti, et al, lists. Replace it with "Sword Trance"
( much like Babester Gor's "Axe Trance" ).
2. Rethink the "mindless" aspect of Berzerk. Swap the "mindless" for "selfless".
And assume the "confusion" about friend & foe comes from being infused with
DEATH. Don't make the Humakti drooling and slavering over the kill. Make
him/her divorce feelings and _not_bother_ to differentiate friends from foes,
after the foes are gone. Not that (s)he CAN not, but WILL not. (Knowing that
Death == Truth, and nothing else matters. )
I can easily see a Humakti, seeing that his/her time has come, and knowing
that (s)he has duties to perform beforehand, doing either. Feelings and thoughts
clear from the mind, and the duty of separating begins, and all that.
>> To compensate for getting rid of Berserk I'd change Sever Spirit from its
>> present form as a 1-shot, ranged Finger o' Death to a temporal weapon-en-
>> hancing spell.
YOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This seems a bit grim.... even for Humakti.
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Chalana Arroy's Resurrection: the peaceful LBQ-version
Message-ID:
Date: 16 Oct 93 11:37:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2023
All this resurrection stuff:
In my (Non-Gloranthan) campaign nobody has so far even thought about
resurrection. All casualties we've had so far remained dead, and since
I'm inclined to play fair, all the opponents' casualties have, too.
In Gloranthan contex I'd expect a resurrection to be an effort worth a
mild version of a heroquest, nothing less (after all Tales 7 told us
about the "Escape from Death" Quest every would-be hero ought to
fulfil). So every try would involve the victim to be analogized with
Yelm, and the CA healer collecting the other Lightbringers to go and
find the victim in the Netherworld. It might be especially effective if
the repentant slayer takes Orlanth's role in this ceremony - I can see
a lot of roleplaying potential in finding the slayer and convincing him
to participate! (This might also be a fine way to solve "murder out of
red rage" cases like in Icelandic Sagas - the slayer is "condemned" to
participate.)
But even if the slayer cannot be convinced, the ritual can be
performed. Someone else has to play the role of the slayer, maybe a
Windlord has to take upon himself the role of the scapegoat - the
Trickster won't, since he has his own role to play.
I have to stop now - continue this on your own!
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: White Healers in Talastar
Message-ID:
Date: 16 Oct 93 12:39:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2024
Graeme A Lindsell on Resurrection and Chalana Arroy in X-RQ-ID: 2008
>David Dunham writes:
>>So I think Resurrect tends to be rare because Healers are rare, and there's
>>no real problem. I dislike your other solutions.
> Doubtful. The given percentage of High Healers in scenarios is high,
>in the one city is high, and even in KoS is high. In the listing of
>Specialized cults (p.255) the first thre are Issaries, Lhankhor Mhy
>and Chalana Arroy. This is the same order as on p246, and since it
>isn't alphabetical it implies these are the three most common of
>these cults. The given example of a specialized priest on that page
>is CA as well. I don't see where it says that CA is much less
>common than the other specialized Lightbringer cults.
I'd like to think that resurrections are pretty low on a not
"unaligned" (adventuring) healer's list, when cure disease needs to be
cast almost every day. The ten points of divine magic for Chalana
Arroys on their way to priesthood ought to consist of several (3 to 4)
Heal Wounds, at least one Heal body (3 points), in Lightbringer society
at least one Cure Chaos Wound, at least 2 Comfort Songs, and a few
Summon/Command Healing Spirit to fight diseases etc.. Regrow Limb and
Restore Ability are already very special services, Resurrect would be
very unusual. It's easier and more important to help the living, to
resurrect the dead is only to be done when this individual has an
important mission to fulfil. For this Runelords of friendly cults might
qualify, if their cults back the request; rich merchants or rulers'
relatives would need a lot of effort to rival this spiritual
motivation. Player characters who want to gain access to resurrection
in my game would have three possible approaches:
1) They DI and ask their god itself to intercede. The deity might
either grant this by prompting his local representative (the cult) to
urge the CAs, or (when it lies within the mythical powers of the cult)
to resurrect the character on its own.
2) They become important enough Rune Ranks that the cult will intercede
on their behalf.
3) One of them chooses to go the Healer's path, and learns it - most
probably after a long pilgrimage on which the rest of the party has to
accompagny the healer _and behave correspondingly_!
> I still think a permanent POW loss associated with Resurrect would be
>best. It is a permanent unnatural effect, which usually requires
>some POW (Note: Sever Spirit and other killing spells are permament
>_natural_ effects - people naturally drop dead all the time)
A heroquest with a certain risk for healer and company would be as
appropriate IMO.
>>Hopefully the analysis above suggests the answer: there _is_ no nearby
>>Chalana Arroy temple. (It's true that Chalana Arroy appears in the Orlanth,
>>Yelm, and Pamalt pantheons, but I doubt she's real popular in any of 'em.)
> Nope. The Queen is Gundrun the Golden, wife of Hakon the Swimmer, High
>King of the Bilini (Talastar Papers, P12). In the Genertela book it
>gives Talastar a population of 200,000 and claims that the Bilini are
>the largest tribe in the southern part of Talastar. If a relatively
>large Orlanthi kingdom doesn't have at least a minor Temple to one
>of the Lightbringers than I doubt any exist anywhere. She also has
>a Lunar Dee Zola priest as a personal physician.
> To take the point one step further, it's says that she was crippled
>by Wasting Disease (affects Str), not Creeping Chills as I said earlier.
>_Ernalda_ gets Restore Health (Strength) (She get Restore (Con) too). In
>the current RQ3 rules Gundrun would have been healed by them as easily by
>Chalana Arroy ie a group of 10 Ernalda acolytes could have sacrificed
>for 1 point of Restore (Strength) each, and she'd be fine.
> Which was my original point: The current RQ3 rules don't reflect
>Glorantha.
Why not? Talastar in the time of Hakon the Swimmer was firmly in
Malia's grip, thanks to the Lunar campaign of acceptace of Chaos.
I would not think that a) in an area sprirtually pervaded by Malia
any healing woould work fine, and b) that the Ernaldans might withhold
their healing until the land is cleansed. Ernalda is neither the
Chaos-and-Death-eating Babeester Gor, nor is she gentle Chalana. Politics
are not beyond Earth temples. They might even have had one of the darker
Earth deities utter a curse of incurability _until Malias grip on the region
is released_!
>Colin Watson writes:
>>I'm afraid I won't be much help in this 'cos I don't like resurrection
>>in principle.
> Well I'd be inclined to remove it but KoS p255 says that CA healers
>are sometimes able to raise the dead (but not every 4 days like the
>current rules allow). Since Greg still thinks they can raise the dead
>I think the rules should reflect it.
Well, after the modification of regaining divine spells I use only a
full priestes would theoretically be abe to do this. BUT: a full
priestess has a gigantic parish to care for, and to regain lesser
healing magic to save several lives will always have priority before an
obscure demand to resurrect someone. Note also that the most effective
way to resurrect someone is to use Heal Body first, and Resurrect then
- this makes six points of divine magic, which could save as many
lives!
>>For starters, I think it should be in the domain of Death gods (I don't
>>see resurrection as healing, I see it as power over Death, so I don't see why
>>CA gets it at all). I think Death cults would only use it in *exceptional*
>>circumstances.
You're right about this if you look at Yelm and the Seven Mothers: both
are cults whose deities had a "victorious" encounter with death. Other
Death cults could have different versions of Resurrecton, such as Daka
Fal's Summon/Incarnate Ancestor and Zorak Zoran's Create Ghost.
> I think it was her reason to be on the Lightbringers Quest: she was trying
>to discover how to raise the dead. I can see your reasoning concerning
>Death and resurrection, but the only _real_ Death God - Humakt _ would
>never allow it!
And I think her spell is actually a version of this quest. See my
separate posting on this.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: stormbull@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tim Westlake)
Subject: Resurection, swords & Stormbull weapons
Message-ID:
Date: 16 Oct 93 14:19:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2025
In-Reply-To: <9310150615.AA13115@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
mstrong :
> Player characters need to fear death (or, in the case of Humakti,
> respect it) and too much resurrection spoils this.
Absolutly! Have you evere seen a high level D&D game with a couple of
clerics or even access to a large temple? Two to three party deaths are
to be expected and maybe even more but they would still expect to be
brought back at the end of the scenario. Death is not allways final!
> To be honest, the same is true of healing. If a there is too much
> of it about, players will be less reluctant to get involved in fights
> simply because they know that they can get healed afterwards.
Agree again, for the above reasons!
-----------------------------------
Colin Watson
> It makes me wonder how swords ever became popular historically.
Well, during the dark and middle ages, they weren't! They were only
really used as dress weapons, real combat was done with things like
flails and maces as these could effect people in heavy armour (chain
etc). It wasnt until the advent of gunpowder when armour became
unpopular that swords became widely used as real combat weapons. The
holywood image of people in chain beating each other with swords is a
bit of a falicy.
-----------------------------------
Mike Leseth
> Is there a cult weapon for StormBull
Anything that can be used to KILL CHAOS!!
Aside from that, what ever your tribal weapons are would be my best
guess, either that or something big.
Tim
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| StormBull@cix.compulink.co.uk | "The reason God was able to create |
| Westlake_Tim@Tandem.com | the world in 7 days was that he |
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: re: Runequest Daily
Message-ID: <9310161615.AA01576@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 16 Oct 93 06:15:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2026
Hi. This is my first time in the Runequest Daily, so please go easy on
me. I heard of its existence on Friday, and originally planned to slink
around in the background, reading, but not writing. Alas, I've been
sucked into responding on only my second day. And I've written a really
long article, too. Gad.
Chris Pearce sez:
> Do herbivores eat elves?
I've heard of it happening during the Winter Sleep of brown elves and pixies.
Colin Watson sez:
> BTW, is anyone else concerned about how crap 1-H swords are in RQ? You can
> get a 1-H spear (which is near identical to a broadsword in game terms) for
> a fraction of the cost. The only advantage I can see is the ability to
> damage other weapons when you parry: but who ever parries with a 1-H sword?
> It makes me wonder how swords ever became popular historically. Shouldn't
> they have more AP at least?
Hmm. The only real advantages are that swords are more convenient to
carry and that they can be used to strike directly at a weapon to break
it. Not much of an advantage, though. Speaking as one of the major
culprits responsible for RQ III, I guess one quick and easy fix would
be to decree that weapons damage parrying weapons at the same rate they
do when parrying: i.e., spears would never damage your shields, axes
and maces would do so on a special hit, swords would always damage the
parrying weapon (all this assumes, of course, that the weapon
penetrates the parrying weapon's armor).
re: general comments on Resurrection
My own feeling is that Death represents separation and finality, and
life = continuity. Hence, a Death god is the last guy I'd expect to
resurrect someone. Graeme feels that it shows "power over Death". I
agree, but for that reason feel that it is inappropriate to a death
god's priest -- who, in my campaigns, does not profess power over
death, but glorifies death's power.
I believe the rules state that you lose 1d3 off each non-spirit stat
for each full day you stay dead. In my own campaign, I changed this to
1d3-1. The basic problem with easy Resurrection in Glorantha is the
paucity of healers. Think of the magical ecology: among the Orlanthi
maybe 1% of the population can afford to worship the extremely
restrictive and onerous cult of Chalana Arroy (henceforth referred to
as CA). Boldhome, with around 10,000 adult inhabitants, has 100 or so
CA initiates. In a normal cult environment, maybe 2% of the adult
worshipers are priests, Rune lords, or acolytes, but CA boasts more,
because A) they receive much of their support from non-cultists and B)
they don't tend to be killed off on their way to high rank. On the
other hand, most CA cultists (being homebodies) only get POW checks
once a year at worship time, or when they wrestle a spell spirit, which
means they generally have less Rune magic than priests from more
aggressive cults. In addition, CA has a lot of one-use spells, which
also lowers her priest's total spell points. By my calculations
(available on request), an average CA priest has maybe 10 spell points,
with probably 1 Resurrection. I figure around 5-10% of the CA cult are
full healers, with reusable magic, which gives us about 7 Healers in
Boldhome, or 7 Resurrection spells. Casting Resurrection means 3 days
wasted in tedious prayer for the healer, and they have other spells
they must cast, too, plus other duties to attend to. I would expect a
Healer to be able to cast a Resurrection (plus administer to her other
duties) maybe once every 3 weeks under normal circumstances. This gives
Boldhome access to around 80-90 Resurrection spells a year. Since she
must overcome the target's spirit in combat, and the spell must
succeed, too, maybe a third of her Resurrects fail, dropping the total
down to 60 or so. In a town the size of Boldhome, given the prevalence
of danger, I predict 300-500 deaths yearly. Of course, some 150 of
these deaths are due to irreversible old age, which the Healers
couldn't be expected to fix, but still, with 150-250 deaths a year to
heal, and only 60 successful Resurrections, the Healers practice triage
-- they MUST be discriminating about whom they fix, just like Chris
Pearce says. Remember that many of the deaths are those of children,
whom the Healers would give a higher priority to than a murderous
adventurer. The bottom line is that a gamemaster is entitled to limit
access to Resurrection to his players in Glorantha, if he wants.
This is not intended to denigrate the CA cult in any way -- if
anything, her rarity makes her even MORE important on Orlanthi
councils.
Mike Leseth sez:
> Is there a cult weapon for Storm Bull, or can they use any weapon?
First, a side note, since the Storm Bull cult has always been dear to
my heart. The Storm Bull is god of Destruction, but in the cause of
justice. Among the Sartarites, Orlanth is considered to have tamed the
Storm Bull, and Orlanth Rex initiates are agreed to be the masters of
the Berserks. In most tribe's fortresses, you'll see the king sitting
flanked by his guards -- burly berserks, their rage held in check until
the king needs such mindless service. Among the Praxians, there is no
such limit held over the Storm Bulls. This is one of the reasons that
the Wastes are such a bad place to live -- untamed Storm Bulls. This
doesn't mean that Praxian berserks are tougher than the Sartarite ones,
of course -- it just means that the Praxian ones are not part of the
tribal power structure.
Everyone who has said that Storm Bulls use their tribal weapons are
right on. All weapons are theoretically accessible to the Bull, though
where there has been contact with the Lunar Empire, scimitars are often
frowned on. Missile weapons are not the main emphasis for most Storm
Bulls, for obvious reasons. The traditional weaponry for full berserks
among many hill barbarian tribes is two bastard swords -- one in each
hand. This is a pretty effective combination, given that they normally
fight Fanatical or Berserk, and don't want to impale. But I can't
imagine a Storm Khan rejecting an initiate on the basis of his weapons
choice, unless it was really egregious (i.e., "My weapon masteries are
thrown dagger, singlestick, and Real Large Shield. Can I join the
Bull?")