From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 28 Oct 1993, part 2 Precedence: junk --------------------- From: s.phillips@gla.ac.uk Subject: Sartar'n'Sturff Message-ID: <25_Oct_93_15:47:03_A10475@UK.AC.GLA.VME> Date: 25 Oct 93 14:47:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2104 Hi from Sam ----------- Well, the continuing saga of setting up a campaign in Sartar.. * After posting my last message I returned home to look at maps of Sartar. Myself and Harry stayed up late a couple of nights ago, reading all our ancient RQ stuff. I found old letters from Greg Stafford. I had forgotten we ever wrote to him! He mentioned the number 4033 in respect to where the next Lunar temple was going to be set up. (At least I think it was 4033, or is that my CashCard number..?). So out came the Dragon Pass board map to look for it. It appears to be Brown Dragon. Anyway, while looking at *this* map of Sartar I found a large valley marked on it which I assume must also be Ormthane Vale. Gregged again! This valley has a road running right through it and a fort at the north end (Tworidge). Bang goes my cut off clan... * I have just been looking at the *new* Trollpak. Now this map is even better! It is almost worth buying the pack to get it. But we already have the old version. Is there much else new in this? (I only got a quick peep - Virgin Megastores seal up all there gameing stuff - boo!). * Sartarian forts: What do you think these are like? I had an Idea that the post Sartar forts are probably smaller and, rather than being stone built, they are wooden. I had a flirt with designing a Wind Rune shaped fort. It looked rather good. As long as the wall didn't come right into the middle. Would the Lunars take over *every* Sartarian fort? Do the Lunars, in fact, interfere in everyday Sartarian life or do they run the major settlements and leave the hillsfolk to themselves? They obviously can't be everywhere at once. Do they collect taxes from the hillfolk? Do the Lunars have a building program in Sartar? if so they could drastically change Sartarian settlements. Bathhouses, latrines, Aquaducts, Forums, large shopping malls (sorry - markets). Are they sending settlers? (This is probably in KoS. I'm just thinking out loud). * I also had a quick peep at Dorastor. I'm not allowed to read this as I am still a player in Harry's campaign and I think he wants to use it. The Orlanthi buildings were interesting. Are they Sartarian? I noticed an Orlanthi temple with a large opening in the roof. Not round though. * Ahah! the elusive Sartar-Pack. Greg mentioned *this* in his 1986 letter we discovered the other night. I had asked a few questions about Sartar and he chose to answer with '- see the forthcoming Sartar Pack out very soon!'. So it must have been near completion then! Mind you, the letter we received from him was 6 pages long - No wonder other projects didn't get finished... what a nice man though. * Something else I just remembered. I sent an International money order to the Chaosium, 5yrs back, to get a copy of their 'so-you-want-to-write -for-Chaosium' booklet (or whatever it was). I never got anything. I was just curious rather than serious. I wonder what happened to my cash? Anyone want a random names generator. It is part of my runequest character generator (A *non-random* tool to help with RQ experienced characters - currently unfinished (well i've only been at it for a weekend)). It so far does Lunar, Sartarian, Praxian and Troll names. About 80% are useable and 10% or so are brilliant.. Its a Macintosh application written in 'C'. Cheers! Sam. x Not Scotland but Sartar. --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail) Subject: Golden Bow; Humakt; Temple sizes; Urox berserks Message-ID: <199310251635.AA01312@radiomail.net> Date: 25 Oct 93 16:35:30 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2105 >From: nrobinso@sirius.UVic.CA (Neil Robinson) Greg told me Jardan=Golden Bow. >Prior to this battle, the Pure Horse >people also suffered a loss to the Trolls, where their War God (Golden >Bow) was crushed (KoS 193). RoC also mentions this. > >Does this mean they worship a Dead God? I don't think so. There are Golden Bow counters in the Dragon Pass game. I don't interpret "crushed" to mean killed; it's a crushing military loss, which mirrors a humiliating defeat for their war god. >From: 100116.2616@CompuServe.COM (David Hall) >when someone joins the Temple of Indrodar (a local Lismelder >sub-cult of Humakt). When Corwen (from Tales #6) joined up we had a full >clan funeral for him - everybody was there mourning his death. The funeral >pyre could be seen for miles around. Though I did feel sorry for his widow >and kids. I think you're overdoing this -- wife is _not_ his kin. And one could argue that Humakt only cut himself off from his kin, not his descendents (isn't there a Humaktsson floating around [is this an Arkat title?]). Still, the funeral is a neat touch. >Humakti in the tribe: >This is also a place where Humakti can operate. This is also where they best operate among the Grazers... >on Humakt's High >Holy Day (Indrodar's Deathday) anyone in the tribe can sacrifice for >Indrodari spells - though only 1 point ones. This doesn't mean that they >only worship him on that day - all tribesmen and women worship him every >Orlanthi holy day - or at least think of him, or appease him. > >This is something that the clunky mechanics of RQ can't cope with. I say >that Indrodar's Temple is a large Humakti temple. But RQ says that because >there are only some 50 - 80 Swordbrothers it's not even a minor one. This >is tosh. It means that for some deities, i.e. Minlister, Heler, Donander, >Issaries & Indrodar, you will never get enough worshippers together (1,500 >- which is three Sartari clans, or one small city) to have access all the >gods magics. > >The only way around this is to count worshippers per pantheon of deities, >and not per god. So, in Lismelder lands Indrodar is, by definition, >worshipped by everyone who worships the Orlanth pantheon. The tribe is >4,000 strong which give me a Great Temple - if I want to define it as being >that big. You beat me to it -- I've been meaning to write something similar. Unfortunately, while the problem is real, I think your solution is too broad. Every tribe _doesn't_ have a Great Temple. And your answer that you decide it isn't is hardly a useful guideline! >However, the emphasis on Storm Bulls in Sartar seems to be away from >chaos-killing and toward the drunken berserkers of Viking Saga's. In this >case Storm Bulls would be far easier to fit within a clan and tribal >structure. I don't think the prevalence of berserks in the sagas has anything to do with their prevalence in the culture -- they just did stuff that made them more memorable. If I remember right, Egil spent most of his life farming, but most of his saga is devoted to the exciting stuff. >I do like the idea of Storm Bull being different in Sartar as compared to >Prax (it has to be as the two places are so different) I agree, but want to see your alternate spells before I take any away... >From: timp@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Tim Posney) >There are good copies of most of the utitlities you need available for >public use. If there is enough interest I'll post them to soda.., but they >are all ftpable from simtel etc. Don't bother -- not only do I use a Macintosh, I have only email access to Internet. --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: CrackQuest Message-ID:Date: 25 Oct 93 17:27:09 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2106 Greg Fried here. Sam: Do pass on the ISBN numbers. And thanks. --- Sandy: You write, "Is it just me, or have the RQ bulletins gotten significantly smaller over the last week?" So, you're an addict after just a few weeks? Pass the methadone! --- Nick: In your brutal rendition of Gaumata's Vision, you refer to the Sun Domers as the Spartans of the Desert (or something to that effect). Now, I have just been teaching Plutarch's 'Life of Lycurgus,' the Spartan Lawgiver, in my ancient political philosophy class. This is a magnificent source (there's a good edition of Plutarch from Modern Library, available in any good used bookstore!) for RQ! There are indeed many interesting parallels with the Sun Domers. The SDs have those cumbersome Wheels. Lycurgus ordained that Spartan money be minted in iron treated with vinegar -- about as useful as bolgs. The 'Life of Lycurgus' offers many insights into what the regimen of a SD soldier might look like, and why they are so damn ornery, and, well, laconic (and occasionally pederastic!). An important difference. The leisure the Spartans required for their intensive militiary training required the services of a huge slave class, the Helots, who were owned as property of the city (not the individual Spartans to whom the slaves were allocated). I take it, however, that Sun Domer economy is dependant on yeoman farming, and that SD pikemen are an expert militia. I think then that a Spartan phalanx will beat a SD double file (baring rune magic!), as even more of their time is devoted to the craft of war. (And I wonder what role slaves do fulfill in SD society -- isn't large scale slavery as much of a threat to the Sun Domer farmer as Southern slavery was to the Northern free farmer in the pre- Civlil War US? Is Yelm an abolishonist?) But what is striking about the Spartan founding is the almost total absence of the gods. There is no priestly caste with extraordinary political perogatives. The CITY, not the gods, is the truly the greatest object of worship to the Spartans. This seems to be the great difference between classical Earth and putatively Bronze Age RQ: in RQ, the gods (for some fairly obvious reasons) have a much more profound impact on the political dispensation. This makes me wonder: why aren't there more cities in Glorantha with the same meaningful status as, say, a Sparta or an Athens? Pavis comes to mind, but it is an anomaly, and pretty much decadent at this point. In Glorantha, nations and tribes adopt gods as their 'founders' and protectors, but not cities, at least as autonomous political units. Where are the parallels to the classical model of the city as THE most important thing in life, with temples devoted to the gods of the city (the Parthenon!), and the duties of citizenship including military service, voting in the Assembly, serving in the Council of Elders or Magistracy or Juries? Or do I need to read the Glorantha book more carefully? In any case, despite the illustations in RQ2 and RuneMasters and other Chaosium/AH products, Prax is NOTHING like ancient Greece. (Though I will always have an abiding affection for those Luise Perrene illos!) Pedantic rant over! GF. --------------------- From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng) Subject: Minor Peeve - Translation Message-ID: Date: 25 Oct 93 17:51:26 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2107 Just something I'd like to rant about. Please humour me: I'd like to hear your opinions about the new 'names' appearing in _King of Sartar_. I'm specifically thinking about such things as "Sartari" and "Grazers." Here's my take: Please keep in mind that all the documents in KoS are translations, done after an age where all literacy was lost (supposedly). It seems easy for me to conclude that since the natives of Sartar (the Sartarites) frequently refer to themselves as "Orlanthi," the translation of "Sartarites" could be perverted to "Sartari." A similar, but not parallel, example could be drawn from such Lunar weapons as "Bombardiers" and "Knock Down Machine." The future scholars have no frame of reference to lead them to translate these things correctly, as "Crater Makers" (does not a bombardment make craters?) and "Cannon Cult." My point, and my peeve, is that in Sartar, 1622 ST, people don't say "Sartari" or "Grazers." They say "Sartarite" and "Grazelanders." What do y'all think? I guess we could ask Stafford, but that just seems too easy... ;-) Bottom line - I think 'Sartari' and 'Grazers' just sound silly. -DC *David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu / d.cheng@genie.geis.com Ask me about RuneQuest-Con! (212) 472-7752 [before midnight] --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: re: RQ Daily Message-ID: <9310251758.AA04455@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 25 Oct 93 07:58:53 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2108 Graeme Lindsell says with reference to the Humakti "we both die" ceremony. > This sounds very much like an assassination ritual to me The Humakti would rather compare it to a blood feud, and point out that they killed the enemy in open combat, rampaging through Temertain's castle like the 47 ronin. Of course, the end result was much the same as if they'd planned an assassination. > they also mean TRUTH, and there are those Swords who would > emphasize that part over death. As I understand it, the way most Humakti would put it is as follows: "The only truth is death." Neil Robinson says... > Now the grazelanders are apparently the remains of the Pure Horse > People who were all but defeated just outside of Pavis by a > combined force of praxian nomads (the Battle of Alavan Argay). > Prior to this battle, the Pure Horse people also suffered a loss to > the Trolls, where their War God (Golden Bow) was crushed "all but defeated" is a little kind. They were defeated, no doubt about it. They also lost to the trolls, and their elite warriors, the Golden Boy boys, were slaughtered (possibly to cover their retreat). But this doesn't mean that Golden Bow as a god was destroyed. Mighty few gods have been killed since the Godtime. Golden Bow is alive and kicking and an associate cult of Yelm. He offers Sureshot and Pureshot, among other Rune spells. The Golden Bow warriors are still a major part of the Grazeland's society, though there is no doubt they worship Pole Star, too, at least via shamanistic worship. Colin Watson sez: > I find it hard to believe that anyone in Glorantha could be a true > atheist. Well, you have a point. Naturally the so-called atheists in Glorantha don't deny the existence of powerful supernatural beings. They simply believe it is just as stupid to worship Orlanth as it is to worship any other gigantic sylph. They deny the truth of many of the God-Time myths, and see the gods much more as mindless natural forces than intelligent beings. They point out that Storm Season isn't any milder in Orlanth's domain, so what good is he? The storm priests claim to call on Orlanth's power. The atheists say the storm priests are actually controlling Orlanth, without even realizing it. The atheists know that there is such a thing as resurrection. They view this as an argument AGAINST an afterlife -- if there were an afterlife for good worshipers, wouldn't their spirits go there right away, and not be available for resurrection? The existence of a real afterlife is completely denied by these guys. Sure, the theists talk about reincarnation, or Orlanth's Longhouse, or stuff like that, but who's ever seen evidence of it? Darn few. So-called Heroquesters come back claiming to have seen the afterlife, but everyone knows that the Hero Plane is completely subjective anyway and besides the atheist Heroquesters see other stuff. > You mention the three different views of the way > Death/spirits/resurrection works (ie sorcerers', priests', shamans' > viewpoints). Which is nearest the Truth in your opinion? Wow. I'm too old a campaigner to be caught that easily. > is it possible to remove the taint of Chaos from a creature? The traditional line in my own and Greg's campaign is No. Once chaotic, always chaotic. Your afterlife (if any :-)) is down the tubes and you can't be cured. However, I would say that it's up to each person's individual campaign. I know of at least one gamemaster who permitted divine intervention to heal a chaos taint, if the taint hadn't progressed too far (i.e., it wouldn't heal a broo, but maybe a man who'd acquired a chaos feature) and the person wanted to be healed. I think the Chalana Arroy theory is different from temple to temple. She knows that Chaos is bad, and if she belongs to an Orlanthi culture, a healer will try to get warriors to kill a chaos thing. On the other hand, if the CA is from the Lunar Empire, she would be wary of a chaos thing, but would probably judge it by its actions rather than wantonly trying to have it exterminated. Remember that creatures of chaos can actually JOIN CA (though this is pretty hard to do in Dragon Pass). There's a whole temple of chaos CA in Dorastor, not all of them illuminated. Jim Rogers sez: > I almost choked on your statement "All city-dwellers are > effectively non-producers. The Orlanthi of Sartar are not a > subsistence economy." What are you, some kind of primitive > agrarian socialist! Hmm. My politics are only the business of myself and the House UnAmerican Activities Committee. What I meant was that the city dwellers produce no food for export, and most of the stuff they make is non-essential. Stuff like metal plows and riding horses and other necessities are all available in the rural hinterlands. But I digress -- I agree, let's not go into economics and civilization too far. I agree that the "non-essential" luxury goods produced by cities are worthwhile and in fact I owe my existence and livelihood to catering to non-essential luxury desires. Still, farmers, ranchers, and fishers are more essential than even the computer entertainment industry. And yes, by saying that the Orlanthi are not a subsistence economy I meant that they produce a significant surplus. Picture Northern Europe during the bad old days. They had plenty of food and famines were quite uncommon. Now, Sartar's soil may not be quite as fertile as Northern Europe (the God's Age took its toll), but the worship of Heler, Uleria, Ernalda, and Flamal's daughters makes up for that, so the result is bumper crops most of the time. Well, Jim, what would you like to know about Pamaltela? David Hall sez lot's o' stuff about Humakti: Good essay, Dave. I liked it a lot. I agree that there are no doubt Humakti organizations that consider themselves cut off from kith and kin, I just think that this is not a necessary part of becoming a Humakti. Sartar's cities are technically independent of the tribes, and I believe that most of them have a small professional army, especially in an area as war-torn as Sartar. Think of German city-states during the chaos of the late middle ages. Most of them had a standing guard -- composed of mercenaries, it is true, but they had one nonetheless. And nothing says the Humakti have to be from the city they guard. > I really have problems with the idea that every city in RQ has > a temple to Orlanth, Humakti, Storm Bull, Chalana Arroy, etc. Well, obviously this is to some extent a game conceit for the benefit of running a smooth campaign. But in the same way that almost every big city in the U.S.A. has a Buddhist, Russian Orthodox, Moslem, and Spiritualist chapel, you're likelier to find obscure cults in a town than out in the countryside. I suspect that many of the cults will be found only as parts of their associated cults. For instance, a town might have a Great temple to Orlanth, and inside it have shrines or minor temples to Lhankor Mhy, Issaries, CA, etc. The Lhankor Mhy shrine would be considered part of the greater Orlanth whole, and might not even have a full-time priest.I like your idea of an old broken-down Humakti temple with a senile Sword, and militia members who join up only when war looms on the horizon. I expect this is a common occurrence in places like Esrolia, which were clearly not prepared for war. > for some deities, i.e. Minlister, Heler, you will never get enough > worshippers together (1,500) to have access to all the gods magics Lay membership is the key to supporting obscure temples in outlying areas. Everyone in town might be a lay member of Minlister, Earlier someone wrote that "quality, not quantity, is the key. Ten fanatical followers are worth 100 lackadaisical ones" (I'm paraphrasing this unnamed genius whom I can't find the name of.) Lay members should count for at least part of the worth of an initiate. If "clunky mechanics" were desired, I'd propose the old RQ rule that initiates sacrifice all their MPs during worship, while lay members spend 1, which would mean that a lay member would normally be worth around 1/10 as much as an initiate. Some obscure cults have other techniques of boosting support. The Spare Grain subcult of Issaries, frex, is no more than a scam to get farmers to join up so that the Issaries priest can get enough worshipers together to have a temple. The Daka Fal cult counts dead ancestors as worshipers for their services, which greatly boosts attendance. The Krarsht cult uses Krarshtkids and Krarshtides in addition to human initiates, so only a very human humans in an area can have access to a great number of spells.