Bell Digest v931105p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 05 Nov 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Tuesday's RQDs
Message-ID: <931102075004_100270.337_BHB36-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 2 Nov 93 07:50:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2180

___________
Sandy said:

> Esrolia is a unique society, woman-dominated and earth-based. I guess
> when I think of their Babeester Gor warriors I think either Egyptian
> or Aztec. Egyptian does sound too easy.  

Like Celtic/Saxon/Scandinavian sounds too easy for the Orlanthi? When you 
have a densely populated agricultural region that runs things the Old Way 
and is ruled by someone they call Pharoah, it seems a convenience (or, to 
put it another way, why should we make trouble for ourselves explaining 
Aztec Pharoahs?). Chuck in bits of the old Mesopotamian religion run by 
women as pre-Pharoanic stuff (linked to the Esrola cult and the Year Sons), 
and you're away.

NB: in this theory, it could be that "Pharoah" is Belintar's Esrolite 
title, and the trolls, Heortlings etc. have a different name for him. As 
his people are mostly Esrolites and the architecture of the City of Wonders 
was once said to be Esrolian, this doesn't cause me any real trouble -- 
except for having to work out what the Heortlanders call him. King of 
Kings? God-King? Who knows?

> Steve Perrin LIKES recalculating his bonuses. He viewed that as a  
> plus in RQ III. 

Oh my God...

_____________
Sam Phillips:

> RE: Do you join Storm Bull at first initiation?

Chatting with Steve Thomas, and we thought maybe the simple solution was 
that initiation into the god of your culture, people and religion (opposed 
to Cult) was free on reaching maturity. This gives an advantage to people 
who decide to go the way their culture points them. Generate any Sartarite 
character, and he'll become an initiate of Orlanth for no POW cost. Ditto 
Trolls and Kyger Litor, Praxians and Waha, etc.

> Only Adults can do adult things - buy fags, drink beer, go with
> Ulerians, join the moonies, become a beserk...
                     ^^^^^^^
NO! That's proof of feeblemindedness, which strips you of your adult 
rights. You do know that initiation into the Seven Mothers requires you to 
accept a permanent casting of several Madness runespells?

(Greydog propaganda, given an Irrippi Ontor Truth Rating of 0: so what?)

The rest of your discussion is good fun and probably right.

____________
David Cheng:

> Most of the countryside of the Left Arm Islands probably just lacks
> overall spiritual guidance.

I've heard it theorised (by Jon Quaife among others) that the God Forgot 
people are a population of Brithini peasants -- just the Dronars/Dromals/ 
whatever they're called are left. So whichever of them becomes leader for 
the duration of an emergency naturally becomes an "Elder". This would help 
explain why they have no inclination to do anything. It does, however, fly 
in the face of the various Brithini and Weird Mechanical Magic sources...

________________
AOL Discussions:

> Ekron:        Who would be the cossacks?

Char-un cavalry in the service of the Lunar Red Army.

> Gray:         The Paps are their great sacred ground. That's why
>               they allowed the Lunars to remain on the plains of
>               Prax.

Is this the subtext to KoS p.144? Something like, "Leave us alone, or we 
sack your temples and sow the Sacred Ground with salt"? Doesn't seem to fit 
with the source as I first read it...

> Gray:        The Wastes look much more like the Gobi or Sahara...
>              And many of the tribes live there.

Vultures Country, the bit of the Wastes that's just across the River of 
Cradles, is far and away the worst mundane part (i.e. leaving the Copper 
Sands out of discussion) of the Wastes. But it's also the first bit you 
come to if you want to find out what they're like, which is why no Praxian 
tribe went into the Wastes for the whole of the First Age (they were 
eventually forced there by the Pure Horse People coming through Dragon 
Pass). Most of the Wastes aren't *too* bad, if you like that sort of thing. 
Similar to Prax, but not sacred.

Re: Dara Happan Cuneiform

I've seen cuneiform as the Esrolite script (Clay tablets, Earth 
culture...), and think the Dara Happans are more likely to use something 
like Hieroglyphs on their monuments (agreed this crosses with the DH = 
Mesopotamian, Esr. = Egyptian: but I'm not advocating cultural *identity* 
in anything I write: just the need to find a workable parallel so you know 
what kind of people you're dealing with).

Re: Pelorian Cultures

My Carmanians look Persian/Assyrian, with cataphract cavalry and religious 
dualism. The Lunars strike me as more Greek in "cultural" ways, Roman in 
"organisational"; late Dara Happans would probably have Roman morality 
(Cato the Elder, Horatius on the Bridge, etc.) and trad. Middle Eastern 
social organisation. Western Pelorian native populations are turning out to 
be very Greek, which is probably where the Lunars get a lot of it from. I 
won't be posting any more on this topic for now, so please don't ask.

____________________
Divine Intervention:

Maybe part of the answer is that POW lost to gain Divine Intervention is 
set aside by your God for your use in the afterlife, but isn't of any use 
to you in mortal existence (i.e. Ever). This way, someone who'd DI'd 
several times in life, and attracted his deity's attention a lot, would be 
looking forward to a really nice time after death. Saves this biz about 
"Those whom the Gods love, die young with shrivelled up souls and no real 
prospects".

DI-ing off the RunePower pool is a plausible suggestion. Maybe only priests 
can do it. And, surely, you don't stop becoming a priest just because God 
has worked a miracle through you (taking your Rune magic below 10 points)? 
That's elevating mechanics above common sense.

________________
Graeme Lindsell:

> Should PCs be able to DI to associate gods in their pantheon?

I prefer the recent suggestions that your god can ask his friends for help 
getting you out/bringing you back/whatever.


Two and a half days to go, then I can start writing for this Daily again...

====
Nick
====


---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: Gloranthan scripts; divine magic; temples; scenarios
Message-ID: <199311020755.AA14819@radiomail.net>
Date: 2 Nov 93 07:55:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2181

Loren, thanks for posting the conference.

>PRHarmaty:     I don't feel Stormspeech should be written. The
>               oral tradition thing.
>Ekron:         Sartarite can be a script. I just don't know about
>               Stormspeech. Sartarite is cool by me

But why couldn't you write Stormspeech in Sartarite letters? Mongolian was
originally written in Uighur. Lots of languages use the Roman script.

I always figured Glorantha has a lot more languages than scripts (writing
systems). Most were probably spread by world-wide empires such as the
Jrusteli. Which raises the question: is there written Tradetalk? It would
seem appropriate for contracts on the one hand, but if it's a pidgin-type
language, I wouldn't expect a written form. (I think in my campaign I once
described it as being very pictographic.)

>From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
>        If you use the reusable divine magic for initiates (once per year) 
>        and reusable once per season for priests (they get the spells back 
>        on holy and high holy days).  Then the great resurrection debate 
>        is fairly immaterial, a priest could cast resurrection 5 times a 
>        year and the odd initate with the spell is not going to greatly 
>        increase the total number available.  

I'd have thought that even under a system which lets initiates regain
divine magic, they aren't allowed to sacrifice for spells listed as one-use
(whether or not priests can renew those).

Nick & Sandy:
I quite agree, temples should be treated more loosely than the RQ3 rules.
It's too bad nothing in print suggests that temples aren't always fixed
sites (yes, Orlanth worship may be outdoors, but that makes me think of
Stonehenge, not just any old place where the Godi plants his staff).

>Me, I'm not too bothered by Rune Magic recovery: it takes place out of game 
>time, and therefore isn't all that interesting. 

Not in the sorts of RQ games I run...

Which leads me to a comment Nick made about Gaumata's Vision being one of
the better scenarios. Sorry Mike, but I don't agree -- it seems to be an
example of a somewhat disturbing trend in RQ Renaissance scenarios which
probably stems from Ken Rolston's excellent abilities as a GM.

Recent scenarios are heavily geared towards a particular sort of character.
GV is far better the way Nick ran it, for Sun County characters. Nick's
also told me that _all_ his players run Sun County characters. What a
luxury! In my Gloranthan campaign, we do have 3 Grazers, but also a
Sartarite Uroxi, one or two Praxians, and possibly a Sartarite Humakti. (My
Griffin Island campaign is worse, in that only two characters speaks the
same native language...) The mixed party has always seemed the norm.

I ran Melisande's Hand, but only one character could participate (the
Uroxi, tho someone rolled up a Magasta worshipper!).

The excellent Riskland campaign requires Orlanthi. Troubled Waters requires
a Zola Fel initiate -- a cult explicitly stated (Gods of Glorantha) as not
for PCs!

Some GMs (Ken is one) are masters of getting disparate characters
motivated. I'm not. Some GMs can get their players to create new
characters. My players really like playing continuing characters (how else
can they ever gain their Rune?).

I'd like to see more stuff like the old Pavis/Big Rubble (anyone could
venture in, and the Cradles scenario was for all non-Lunars). Or Griffin
Mountain (suitable for natives or visitors).

A good scenario must be one I can not only admire, but use. That means I
have to be able to use it in my campaign. I happen to run in 1611 -- don't
tie your scenario to a particular year (a regrettable flaw in RQ Adventures
fanzine). Ideally, a scenario wouldn't even be tied to a locale (e.g.
feuding Orlanthi clans could be anywhere), though this is obviously
excusable in a scenario that's part of a background book. Most importantly,
keep the scenario open to the widest range of PCs. Writing a scenario for
Orlanthi may seem like a safe bet, but it's not (I've never run an
Orlanthi, and the only one in my campaign is a Windchild).

David Dunham * Software Designer  *  Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net


---------------------

From: rowe@soda.berkeley.edu (Eric Rowe)
Subject: DI's and a Lunar Report
Message-ID: <9311020836.AA29981@soda.berkeley.edu>
Date: 1 Nov 93 16:36:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2182


The subject of whether or not DI's are tied to the powers of the god
in question reminded me of Stafford's article on DI's in Wyrm's
Footnotes 12.  Basically, yes, results should be tied to the gods
powers, at least in the chaosium house campaign.  It is how I've
always run them so I thought I'd give a recent example.  This occurred
in my Pavis campaign when the group was downstream on the Zola Fel
working for a big fish.

The first DI occurred when ogres attacking the party summoned
Cacodaemon with a great deal of luck.  The party, seeing their doom,
grew worried at not having any rune levels about.  The two initiates
attempted to DI and the Etyries one was successful.  Guided by the
tongue of his god he convinced the big winged slavering chaos guy to
look elsewhere for fun.  The party and the ogres mutually agreed this
was all bigger than them and clearly the gods did not wish them to
fight, so they parted peacefully.

Can't mention one campaign without mentioning the other.  Here's
something Shannon Appel wrote up after a run he did in the Lunar
oppressors of Sartar campaign (Some of the players occasionally
run to even out the work load).

Hope you enjoy it,

eric

		Being the Report of Marsilia Redblade
		on the Unit of the Balazaran, Poloathi

Having spent an entire week with the unit of the Balazaran, Poloathi,
I have seen no evidence of a general incompetence which might have
been suspected based upon earlier reports.  Rather, it seems quite
likely that earlier defeats of this unit were simply the result of
poor luck.

During my period with Poloathi's unit, I spoke with them on two
important matters: religion and the inner secrets of the universe.
The majority of the recruits seem well on the path to total
assimilation into Lunar Society.  Only <> seems resistant to our
beliefs, holding stubbornly to a worship of Aldryami.  In addition, I
believe that all of the recruits are moving slowly down the road to
illumination.  Eventually, they will see.

Comments follow upon the members of Poloathi's Troop:

Poloathi: The biggest weakness of this troop was probably in the
leadership.  It is clear that Poloathi has had little formal training
in tactics, a fact which was made abundantly clear when she allowed
her troop to nearly exhaust themselves fighting a gorp in the middle
of Snake Pipe Hollow.  I would suggest training in both tactics and
assertiveness in order to help her reach her full potential as a
leader.

Togo: The frog broo showed himself to be both brave and a good
tactician during my time with him.  The first attribute would imply
that he would make an excellent soldier, while the second would
suggest that he is officer material.  Several times, his tactical
sense was shown, so that avenue might be seriously considered.

<>: As was noted earlier, this Balazaran, recently brought into
this unit steadfastly holds to his elvish beliefs.  In other ways too,
he shows too much independence.  Ultimately, this must be corrected so
that he may be a better soldier.  <> showed himself to be an
excellent bowman.  His skill should be nurtured if possible.  In the
future, we may wish to examine Balazarans more carefully for inclusion
in the auxilary missile troops of the Army.

John Blacksmear: John seems a good warrior, although he becomes a bit
too frenzied in battle.  Either this problem should be corrected, or a
more appropriate troop should be found for him.

Ripley: The dragonewt that associates with Poloathi's group is quite a
warrior.  We should do what we can to attract more of these beasts
into our army.

Others: The other members of Poloathi's troop were relatively
undescript.  They seemed good soldiers without any exceptional traits,
bad or good.  They seem prime examples of how well the barbarians have
been brought into our army.

In conclusion, I would say that the integration of these barbarians
into the Lunar army is going well.  There are still rough edges, but
those may be worked out.  For the future, we must be especially
carefully to provide the loyal barbarians, who we move to positions of
some authority, with the knowledge needed to best lead troops.  In
addition, we must look more carefully into the bow skills of the
barbarian, which may fit much better than their primitive work with
scimitar and shield.  Other than that, our training program seems
highly successful.

Marsilia Redblade X

---------------------

From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Storm Kahns in Sartar
Message-ID: <9311021013.AA19908@Sun.COM>
Date: 2 Nov 93 09:10:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2183


In response to Nick's question about big bullies in Sartar (BTW Good Luck).  

Storm Kahns could be called any of the following (take your pick):

	Sturm Fuhrer (Have I spelt that right Joerg et al.)
	Storm Front
	Storm Leader
	Berserker
		(remember that only rune lords can regularly go berserk.)
	Storm Lord
	or just SIR

	OK so the first one is a horribly mixed metaphor and in bad taste too.  
A group of SBs could be called a Storm Force (followed by the number of SBs).  
Thus Storm Force 12 is pretty destructive!  (Sorry about the pun...)

	Anyway *I'll be bock* when you have had a chance to recover from my 
awful puns (and your accountantcy exams Nick).  

	-----
	Lewis
	-----

---------------------

From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: DIing again
Message-ID: <9311021235.AA22060@condor>
Date: 2 Nov 93 12:35:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2184


_______________
Graeme Lindsell says:
> Re appropriate DI's: if we were to limit people to those DI's
>that are within the power of their god, then should PCs be
>able to DI to associate gods in their pantheon? 

Spot on. This gets my vote (assuming lay-membership in associated cults).
______________
Sandy Petersen says:
>While Gloranthan gods aren't particularly omnipotent, they are  
>certainly vastly powerful. Say you needed to be moved away from a bad  
>place. No doubt Kyger Litor would send a cloud of darkness to engulf  
>you. When it lifted, you'd be somewhere else. Storm Bull might suck  
>you up in a whirlwind and carry you bodily off. Ernalda might open up  
>a crack in the earth and swallow you up, spitting you out at the  
>desired locale. Etc.

That "Etc." covers a multitude of sins. I don't dispute that *some* gods
could get you out of *some* situations, but I'm doubtful that any god could
get you out of *every* situation.
Sure, Kyger Litor could transmute a Man into Darkness, say, to facilitate his
escape from a cell (his runes are Man & Darkness after all); but if the Man
has a lung full of sea-water at 15 fathoms then he'd have to be rather
inventive when calling on KL. And when Hewie the Troll dies I don't think
he'll spring back to life just because Kyger Litor turns the lights off and on.

>All the gods can move about quickly

But some can move a *lot* quicker than others (IMHO anyway). Some gods are
more appropriate than others for particular DI effects (see below).

[...]
>Also, if we stick with the Pantheon idea, perhaps Lhankor Mhy (not a  
>particularly mobile type of guy) could ask his pal Issaries to move  
>you somewhere if you DI'd to LM for transport. In return, someday  
>when an Issaries needed wisdom from heaven, LM would return the  
>favor. Likewise, any solar or storm cultist might be able to DI to  
>their god for Resurrection (actually provided by CA). Only if it  
>seems reasonable for a given campaign, of course. 

Ah, this is more like it! It gives some incentive to take an interest in
associated cults. I do think this is a good argument for lay-membership.
The benefit isn't huge, but it's probably enough to encourage PCs to join up.

Mind you, I think the LhM initiate who needs to move quickly would get
better help from Orlanth than from Issaries. I can imagine the tragic scene:

 Facitius the crusty old Grey Sage is about to be trampled by a stampede of
 charging bison. He shouts a plea to LhM for help...
 ...And out of the ether trundles Issaries on his divine wagon!
 "Hop aboard, son".

 I hope he remembers to tip. :-)

___
CW.

---------------------

From: eosgg@raesp-farn.mod.uk (Geoff Gunner)
Subject: Religion and D.I.
Message-ID: <9311021315.AA20726@raesp-farn.mod.uk>
Date: 2 Nov 93 13:15:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2185

Joerg says something about worshippers being pragmatists, only praying for what
they can get out of it.  Really ?  How do you explain that the majority of
human cultures have religion deeply ingrained in them ?  And that's without any
definite evidence (ducks in case any fundamentalists are reading).

Humans, and presumably all the other intelligent races in Glorantha, have a
deep-seated need to beleive in a higher being/s.  Why isn't important.  The
person will choose, if they have the luxury of choice, the deity that fits
their mental attitude.  If the culture is pacifist Orlanthi then that will be
Chalana Arroy, completely irrespective of how powerful the spells that can be
gained are.  That sort of thinking is power-munchkinism.  And none of us sober,
sensible RQ'ers are power-munchkins, now ?


re: general discussion -

On divine intervention, some interesting thoughts have been put up.  But let's
think where the game inspiration came from.  It was from Greek mythos, yes ?
By Gloranthan standards the Greek gods are interfering meddlers, but the point
remains that the gods could do a lot more than just their own sphere of
influence.  Teleporting out of danger, healing parties, etc must be standard
fare - it's the most commonly asked-for thing.  I've no doubt that if the
object of desire went against the god's nature then you wouldn't get the
intervention (such as asking Orlanth for a chaos feature) (but perhaps loose the
POW anyway as a lesson ?).

IMHO the game doesn't need excessive specialisation in this area - it's
supposed to be a game convention that gives you one last chance to save your
beloved character when all else fails.  Let it stand outside the rules - it *IS*
supposed to be more powerful than normal rune magic.  And if your Uroxi
(I'd much rather say Storm-Bullian, but that's just gold blowing on the wind)
is up agains enemies who *repeatedly* D.I. away from trouble then he/she's up
against some _MEAN_ enemies !  I mean, are they all Rune Lords or what ?
If so, what about the hoardes of initiates that they must be travelling with ?
Doesn't your Uroxi have better things to do, although trampling enemies
underfoot does have a poetic touch.


Incidentally - the most monumentally brave/heroic/stupid thing I've yet seen my
players get up to is the Uroxi of the party accept a Minotaur's wrestling
challenge because 'the Bull would approve!'.  Okay, the Minotaur got a bit
excited when the Uroxi threw a rock at him ("mini-heroquest!"), but the Uroxi
survived !  Amazing.  As a reward at High Holy Day he'll probably get to
be possessed by a spirit of Beserk  (as per the Viking rules).  He's obviously
a nutter, this will just make it official ...

Geoff.

Q: What's black and brown and looks good on a Lunar ?
A: My dobermann !

---------------------

From: kenrolston@aol.com
Subject: Re: RQ3 Out of Print???
Message-ID: <9311020810.tn246104@aol.com>
Date: 2 Nov 93 13:10:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2186

Wha??

The boxed RQ3 edition is being replaced by a paperback with the same
contents, but cheaper, so you won't be able to get the old boxed edition. I
don't know when AH runs out of boxes, or introduces the paperback to the
trade. I don't have my copy of the paperback yet, so it may not be ready.


Nick
I use the daemon spelling because it has associations in my mind with "spirit
being" rather than with standard Christian mythology. I also wore that
spelling out in my WFRP days. In fact, I'd forgot about the existence of
Fundamentalists.
   And of course the Vivamortists acknowledge the power of the Runes, in a
matter-of-fact pragmatic way. They would be publically puzzled by any
insistence on an association of the Runes with theism.
   I'm not sure how much to trust the Vivamorts myself. Beings with very long
life spans may become pretty much incomprehensible to us mortals in terms of
their motivations and values. Vivamortists admit that, from a human mortal
point of view, being a vampire is a pretty bleak prospect. It's hard to tell
if they are subtle propagandists or totally indifferent to the fate of their
mortal audience.

Ken