From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 05 Nov 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
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From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: Divine Machinations
Message-ID:
Date: 2 Nov 93 16:33:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2187
A quick note:
Cheers to Graeme Lindsell! If you like RunePower, then using your Rune
Points for DI is definitely the way to go. Think of it in the big picture:
the Sartarites and Lunars have a pitched battle. As warriors get struck
dead, do you really expect ~10% of them to be granted DI, to rise up and
fight again? This was supposed to be covered more fully in the Rune
Power writeup, but was cut because of David Hall's strict lenght
limits. Perhaps we'll try to sneak it in again.
Extension: Only silly powergamer players worry about amassing 20 points of
Extension. If you're a priest, you've got a 'flock' of worshippers to
support. What do _they_ think about you going off and blowing all your
POW for several years on Extension spells? They need Bless Crops, Cloud
Call, *Divination*, et al., and they give you 10% of their money so you can
be available to do these things for them. Can you allow the magical
and spritual needs of the community to be so grossly neglected, just
so you can have Shield 5 up for a year? What will your deity think of
such things?
Disclaimer: I am very willing to be a heavyhanded GM when it comes to
rules rape like this. "Orlanth asks you why you want that 5th point
of Extension, when you have only one point of Divination, and no Cloud
Call at all."
Of course, with RunePower, you don't sacrifice for specific spells...
I also would agree that you don't get the Extension points back until
the _whole_ spell expires, if it came down to it.
*David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu / d.cheng@genie.geis.com
Ask me about RuneQuest-Con! (212) 472-7752 [before midnight]
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From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Divine Intervention
Message-ID: <9311021914.AA03485@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 2 Nov 93 19:14:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2188
A couple of uses of Divine Intervention from our campaigns:
A Voria priestess whose temple is being burnt down by outlaws (Really Bad
Outlaws) DIs to have the temple saved. Since (in our campaign) Voria and
Babeester Gor are both faces of the same Maiden, the Maiden possesses the
Priestess with part of her spirit, which I represented in the game by stacking
up several of the Babeester Gor Runespells on her and having her taken over.
The other PC's were amazed to see the horrible transformation of the Voria
priestess into a shrieking axe-wielding (All the Earth temples have a sacred
axe over the entrance, even Voria) maniac. Even the dice cooperated - as
she ran around attacking the outlaws (w/ Axe Trance and Slash) we always
seemed to roll location 9, (lower abdomen), appropriate for a BG avenger.
Orlanth DI to save a group - the obvious. A great wind rushes up and
transports them elsewhere.
Etyries DI to save a small Lunar group including Trollkin from a whole clan
of vicious light-worshipping Ostrich Riders (who would have killed them all
because of the presence of Darkness creatures): Etyries inspired her
priestess with the right words to make an unrefuseable challenge to
single combat according to the customs of the Ostrich People - had it been
refused they would have been shamed forever. Her husband, a Scimitar of
Yanafil Tarnils, won the challenge.
More another time...
- Paul Reilly
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Slavery
Message-ID:
Date: 2 Nov 93 19:14:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2189
Greg Fried here.
Sandy offers a very interesting reason for why, IN GENERTELA, slavery is so
wide-spread: Ompalam (Chaos god of slavery) WON there. In Pamaltela he has
yet to win, and slavery is abominated.
Does this mean that Ompalam is an aspect of Wakboth, Chaos as moral evil? In
the sense that Thed is the Chaos god of the (moral evil) rape? Is slavery in
Glorantha a NATURAL moral evil in the way that, say, incest is -- one that
Wakboth preys upon in order to break in upon the world?
But if all this is true, why does no one in Genertela oppose this
victory of Chaos? Is that what it means for it to have 'won' -- that
a chaotic act comes to understood as perfectly natural and as something
no one would even think of questioning? Does that mean it isn't even
'chaotic' any more, that it poses no threat to the world, secretly or
otherwise?
Maybe then a VERY dogmatic Yelmian would say something to this effect:
"You know, that scum Orlanth was once a Chaos god, too. Really.
Just like that fellow Ompalam, yessiree. He validated the very notion
of theft -- imagine that! Theft! And murder! Can you imagine moral
evils worse than these? But Orlanth stole Yelm's throne and then
murdered him, and in his victory he made theft and murder part of our
cosmos. Curse him! Oh, will you look at the time! Gotta run, I'm
late for my Nysalor discussion group!"
GF out.
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: re: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9311021945.AA14994@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 2 Nov 93 07:45:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2190
Sandy here once more,
re: Extension.
My house rules have always been that the Extension spell cannot be
recovered by the priest until it is dispelled, wears off, or is
otherwise cancelled (like with a Truesworded sword that is broken).
We also play that an Extended spell is no harder to dispell than if
it were not Extended, but I have been reconsidering this.
re: Brithini cathedrals
Obvious the Brithini have little or no religious paraphernalia of any
kind, being the strongest atheists in the world. Anyone who converts,
dies. All the Brithini who would have converted did, long ago (and
died).
re: Loren Miller's online Prax talk
Liked this very much. A fascinating discussion. Two important points:
the tribes DO engage in intertribal commerce and marriage (at least
via wife-stealing), and so there is some cross-cultural activity
going on. This doesn't mean that the Praxians should have all adopted
the same lifestyles, just that they aren't insular.
Also, the basic truth of the Praxians is that their lives follow the
yearly cycle of their animals, and their cultures reflect the
"cultures" of their animals. For instance, the High Llama people are
led by a woman most of the time (generally the clan's oldest Eiritha
priestess), and their khan only takes control when the group is
threatened physically.
re: Loren Miller's Written Language discussion
Stormspeech was probably unwritten in the First Age, but I suspect
the God Learners made a written form of everything for their own use,
and once the written language existed, why wouldn't civilized
Orlanthi use it?
re: Delecti
I seem to recall him as a derelict EWF remnant, a necromancer who now
moves from body to body. When one body gets too rotten and moldy for
him, he moves on. I know that he does occasionally stitch together
mismatched bodies for animation, and that there is supposed to be a
zombie whale somewhere in his marsh. Also there have been encounters
with animated bronze skeletons wired together. The EWF gets a pretty
bad rap in modern Dragon Pass, I would guess. After all, its main
remnants are Delecti, the Tusk Riders, and the Beast folk (centaurs,
manticores, etc.). Ecch.
re: Devil and Block
The Devil is regenerating under that block. It's just that the
block's pressure keeps him squished at a faster rate than he can
regenerate. The Storm Bulls feign a belief that if enough of the the
Block is removed by miners etc., the Devil will be able to get back
up. I'm not sure how many of them really believe it and how many of
them just tell the story as justification for stealing all the
Truestone they can get their hands on.
Nick Brooke sez:
> Honestly, (until the Lunars came) there's not *that* much Chaos in
> Sartar.
There was the Telmori and Snakepipe Hollow. And Hydra's Hill. But in
the good old days, you at least had to go out of your way to get to
chaos. Now it comes right up to your house, and inside.
> you are going to need a new title to replace "Storm Khan"
You could claim that the periodic raids of the Animal Nomads into
Sartar make the name "Khan" recognizable. Of course, that wouldn't
apply to the Storm Bulls out in Ralios or Brolia. How about "Storm
King"? Or does that sound too much like a brand name?
Newton Hughes sez:
> Certainly d&d set a bad example by giving infravision to everybody
> and his dog, but in the case of dwarves isn't it appropriate?
I refuse to stand by anything I wrote in Different Worlds over 10
years ago.
Seeing by means of heat vision isn't a bad idea for dwarfs. Speaking
as a biologist, I submit that the eyes are a poor site for this sense
to be centered in, and recommend that the dwarf's skin be the proper
arena for the Earthsense, whether it be heat or motion. Caves, with a
perpetually unchanging thermal background, would be a good place to
sense intruders via infrared, but a poor place to find your way
around in. I think the dwarfs need another facet to Earthsense
besides just infrared, though it may have nothing to do with any
known abilities. Maybe they can just "feel" everything around them
for some distance, and orient themselves magnetically to the planet's
North.
I think that the dwarfs' eyes are a product of the fact that they
were expected to operate on the surface world, when produced. I
wouldn't be surprised if true Mostali had no eyes at all. Or if they
did, if the eyes were later additions to their bodies.
Graeme Lindsell sez:
> one difference between Praxian and Sartarite Storm Bullers
> is that the later are exclusively male.
Your reasoning here is hard to argue with. I would still vote for the
existence of a (very) few female Sartarite berserks if only because
if a woman wanted to become a berserk and could prove herself worthy,
I imagine the other Storm Bulls would accept her. After all, look
what jerks and misfits they normally accept. She might get a lot of
razzing though.
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Languages: Darktongue, Lunar, etc.
Message-ID: <9311021956.AA03662@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 2 Nov 93 19:56:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2191
Paul Reilly here.
The America Online people mention written languages and say:
> Darktongue - lumps, bumps, rough spots.
In our campaign an important Uz artform is 'sound sculpture'. This is
made by chewing or otherwise inscribing pits and rough spots in some object with
a smooth surface. This can get very elaborate and involve several materials.
When Darksensed the sculpture evokes a Darksense image that is not apparent
to the eyes of a human beholder (compare looking at a hologram to shining a
laser on it and viewing it.) Written Darktongue incorporates this artform along
with denotative symbols, pictures 'read' with the fingers or tongue (or even
eyes), evocative sounds produced by running a stick or claw over the inscribed
Darktongue etc. Thus it is quite easy for Trolls to learn to read Darktongue
but the work of many years to learn to write it properly. Proper 'high'
Darktongue is an artform in itself, with a cultural place perhaps similar
to calligraphy in China (among civilized tribes.) Value Trollkin (enlo) and
Argari merchants learn a debased form of the denotative script that can be
chewed into record-sticks; it is largely concerned with numbers along with
mnemonic symbols and is similar in spirit to knot-writing (Andean) or Ogham.
Darktongue is agglutinative, intuitive, and has many onomatopaeic words -
these latter can be based on the characteristic echo produced by an object
as well as sounds made by something. Thus the 'word' for distances greater
than a few tens of meters consists of two clicks that have a time in between
them indicating the echo time of a distant object. The 'word' for a short
distance is a whistle whose pitch is inversely proportional to the size of
the object. 'Hard' is a click indicating a hard echo and 'soft' is a
palatized click indicating a 'fuzzy' echo. Etc.
That Darktongue is agglutinative can be seen in the small samples we
have seen.
Repetition indicates emphasis. Thus 'uzuz' - Mistress Race Troll, or
Hombombobom the Great Drummer. In our campaign 'ju' indicates mana and
'juju' great magic. Pavic slang has borrowed this with their term `juice`
for magical power (actually 'jhur', a popular drink) and 'juicy', describing
a magical person or item. Many human languages include words of Darktongue
origin.
Darktongue includes many specialized words for eating and digestion, such
as 'yoat' - to swallow whole in the manner of a snake. "The uzko _yoated_
the rubble runner."
New Pelorian - in our campaign there is both an alphabet and a syllabary of
about 600 important syllables (plus many little-used characters). THe
written language looks a bit like Hindi. (We use many Indian models for the
central Theistic zone of Genertela.) The alphabet is considered easy to
learn but inelegant and the upper classes communicate in beatifully
calligraphed letters using the more compact syllabic script. Provincials
often learn only the alphabet. The script is cursive (as 'Gray' speculates..)
> Kralori - ideograms
THis seems inevitable.
Mostali - Printed, looks a lot like Braille. Maybe punched?
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Re: AOL Discussion (again); trekking sunwise
Message-ID: <931102191404_100270.337_BHB54-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 2 Nov 93 19:14:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2192
________________
AOL discussions:
> Ekron:
> Maybe the Brithini could be kind of like the Melniboneans... The
> ancient precursors of civilization who once crushed the world in
> their iron grip and then lost interest.
That's how I see Vormain: hybridize feudal Japan with Moorcock's Melnibone.
Oh, and have a look at their ruling God's complexion and fashion sense some
time: was this interpretation the designers' intention, I wonder. Of
course, the Kralori have both Battle Barges and Dragons, which may explain
the low profile of the Valzain Gods these days...
In the days when the Brithini could have "crushed the world with their iron
grip", they didn't need to, 'cos the whole world was populated by Brithini
(this is way back when in the Golden Age). Maybe even the Vadeli were nice
back then (I said "maybe"). When the Age of Doubt (Great Darkness) assailed
the Kingdom of Logic, I'd say, the Brithini were pretty much knocked back
to where they are today in terms of spread and influence: near neighbours
and colonies of the Brithini were converted to the new religion of the
Prophet Malkion (spreading after his followers' exile/exodus/hajr from
Brithos across the Raging Sea -- did they walk on water, or did it part??),
while the more distant peoples (they would say) became pagan slaves of the
False Gods they empowered with their own ignorance and fear.
[All of the paragraph above is highly speculative stuff with little backing
from any published or other Malkioni sources: believe it at your own peril]
> Gray:
> More British - Sir Ethelrist is supposed to be a Brithini. And he comes
> across as very British. The opposite extreme was the Empire of the Sun
> to the East, which seemed Assyrian/Babylonian at first.
I always see Ethilrist as an Italian Renaissance Prince -- especially when
you look at Muse Roost, that vast monument to his own ego. I am not sure he
is a Brithini -- he appears to be from Ralios (cf. History of My Black
Horse Troop), and to have a personality. But yeah, if you Colonial types
think British = Civilized, run him as British. In the great Hollywood
tradition of Evil Empires, I've always assumed those Lunar officers were
played by British character actors. Ethilrist looks (and acts?) like Alan
Rickman's Sheriff of Nottingham, IMHO. And the Black Horse Troop riding out
looks like those aluminium knights in Boorman's "Excalibur", all night and
fog with Carmina Burana playing in the background.
Empire of the Sun being Assyrian/Babylonian??? Are you talking about Dara
Happa (hardly the opposite extreme to Brithos, but admittedly Babylonian)
or about the Kralori / Vormain / Vithelan Empires (reverse applies)? I
don't really see what you're getting at, here.
> Gray:
> I think [Delecti] is more a researcher than a worshipper. He develops
> experimental undead. Grafts one dead thing to another and reanimates it.
... and, later ...
> The EWF was much into grafting... remember the centaurs .
Is this perhaps the untold Secret Origin of Beast Valley -- were all the
species there created by Delecti himself, in his "early period"? ;-)
____________________
The Path of the Sun:
Interesting one here. Remember, the Sun rises in the East and sets in the
West. I'm going to traipse across Genertela in the same direction, looking
for solar cultures.
We start in Vithela, still ruled by the Sun God. Next, the Eastern Isles,
parts of his Empire. Then, Kralorela, ruled by the Sun God back at the very
start of Creation. (Down south, Teshnos is a purely Solar state). Across
the Pentan Steppe, where every powerful Khagan or Sultan can trace his
ancestry back to Yelm. We get to Dara Happa, where the Sun Empire is at its
height...
Then what? Let's say, Yelm is killed by Orlanth at "mid-day" above Dara
Happa. Go West from there, and you'll find nary a native solar deity. Only
"Ehilm", the so-called False God of the Sun Disc, who has no worshippers
and is named only for Jrusteli or Zzaburi purposes. (That Yelmic city-state
on the beautiful blue Janube is of course a Pelorian import).
Is this, perhaps, significant?
Add to that the reported fact that birds are linked to Storm gods in Ralian
Orlanthi cultures (Humakti ravens, Uroxi condors, Orlanthi eagles), and
that the horses of Galinin are somehow a different species to those of
Hippoi... it seems we have a general Solar disinvestment from the mundane
world and its species anywhere West of Peloria/Dragon Pass.
I might be building something here, though it could all be coincidence.
====
Nick
====
[Two papers down, three to go, no great worries so far]
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Cultural Stuff
Message-ID: <9311022008.AA03736@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 2 Nov 93 20:08:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2193
Paul Reilly here, responding to cultural stuff in the Digest:
The early myths of Glorantha have many exact parallels in Sumerian myth.
The story of Umaths's birth in particular. Thus I look at the Middle East
(including perhaps everything from the Balkans to Northern India) as the
key zone for Earthly cultures that are 'analogous' to central Genertelan
cultures. Someone should write a paper on this...
If we take the statement that Glorantha is a Bronze Age world seriously we
should be looking at cultures like the Hittites and Mycaenean Greeks as our
role models for Theyalans, Sumer for Dara Happa, etc.
I tend to think of the Lunars as more Persian than Roman, but they certainly
seem to have some Roman characteristics. Look at the way some Lunar names
are presented - Icilius, Quintilius, etc.
I like to think of Glorantha's humans as coming from Earth's Dreamlands,
with perhaps some time crossovers so that the West can get its medieval
flavor while the Center and East are still ancient...
More another time...
- Paul
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: THOSE NUTTY BRITHINI
Message-ID: <9311022039.AA03983@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 2 Nov 93 20:39:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2194
Paul here, Continuing to reply to the AOL Discussion:
>Gray: The Brithini claim that all other races of humanity
> are actually descended from animals that tried to
> emulate the Brithini.
I have to point out that I originated this idea and that despite its
merit I am told that it is not Greg's opinion - apparently he thinks that
Brithini say that the other people are Mud Men, counterfeits made of
mud by evil sorcerers. Perhaps Sandy could comment?
>Gray: They say the Kralori are just Dragon Hunchen with
> pretensions...
Yep. But Dragon Hsunchen have a special status due to their power.
>Ekron: That's a workable method of finding cultural
> patterns. Who do they claim descended from what
> animals?
HSunchen from their tribal totem animals, obviously. Kralori from
dragons dreaming of being men. Praxians were Hsunchen of the same time
as their riding animals - again this is pretty obvious. Pentans from horses.
Orlanthi mostly from cattle and sheep - their chief domestic animals.
Aldryami from trees. Mostali were machines.
The Western people were descended from Brithini colonists - how would we
view a colony of people who bred like flies, only lived to age 5, had
babies of their own at age 1 or 2, and whose idea of 'civilization' extended
to what we would call 'Playing House'?
Beast Valley people - descended from crossbreeds of True Humans and animals,
whose animal forms were reawakened by EWF magic, perhaps.
Dara Happan Nobles - Eagle Hsunchen. The nose is a giveaway.
Dara Happan Warriors - Perhaps horses?
Etc.
The cultural patterns of the peoples do fit into those of their animal
ancestors. More on this another time.
Dragonnewts - they live only partially in this dimension. Of course
they seem weird.
Elves - Much more vicious than is popularly supposed. Plant warfare (with
other plants) is vicious and unremitting. They only seem peaceful because
each type achieves total dominance in a niche and ruthlessly destroys intruders.
Look around the base of a sycamore sometime - the brown patch is due to
plant killing toxins produced by the sycamore.
Look at the Gloranthan future for Fronela - the Aldryami plan a mass genocide
of humans.
The old central Genertelan culture appears Sumerian - not just the Dara
Happans but the THeyalans as well. The world picture is Sumerian as well -
a flat world surmounted by a sky dome, city gods, humans providing nourishment
for the gods, an underworld with a black sun, etc., etc. The parallels
are many.
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 02 Nov 1993, part 2
Message-ID: <9311022044.AA04020@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 2 Nov 93 20:44:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2195
>Gray: My favorite Mostali legend is that they were behind
> the rising of the Red Moon - they now plan to cause
> it to roll across the sky and fall to plug the hole
> in the oceans that drains all the water out.
> (Magasta's Whirlpool)
The bath-plug theory is due to Mike Holliday.