From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 06 Nov 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Esrolites, Bull's Horns, and pragmatist polytheists
Message-ID:
Date: 5 Nov 93 21:44:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2215
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 2180
>> Esrolia is a unique society, woman-dominated and earth-based. I guess
>> when I think of their Babeester Gor warriors I think either Egyptian
>> or Aztec. Egyptian does sound too easy.
>Like Celtic/Saxon/Scandinavian sounds too easy for the Orlanthi? When you
>have a densely populated agricultural region that runs things the Old Way
>and is ruled by someone they call Pharoah, it seems a convenience (or, to
>put it another way, why should we make trouble for ourselves explaining
>Aztec Pharoahs?). Chuck in bits of the old Mesopotamian religion run by
>women as pre-Pharoanic stuff (linked to the Esrola cult and the Year Sons),
>and you're away.
When we cross earth cultures divided by 1500 years (Bronze Age Celts
and Vikings), why not cross Celts and Egyptians, too? Take Megalith
graves for the Nekropolis, men wearing kilts and presenting bare
breasts or chest-formed cuirbouilli cuirasses, employing early hoplite
unit tactics armed with shield and hand-axe (the weapons of Earth),
spears (the logical weapon for everyone employing unit tactics) and
twohanded spearaxes (halberds), rather low morale were it not for the
fierce Babeester Gor sergeants marching _behind_ the units (like in
German thirty and seven years warfare) but masses of these, chariots
for the nobility (Celts as well as Egyptians), and you get into the
picture. There are a lot of things that are not Egyptian about the
Esrolites: the River Valley which is regularly flooded doesn't exist,
they don't worship the sun except as one of the subordinated husbands,
their astronomy would be lousy (why look into sky when the rythms of
Earth can be felt beneath your bare feet?), and their buildings would
not be sundried mud bricks which would be washed away by the regular
rains. Things not Celtic about them are harder to find, sacrificial
kingship, the mother goddess of earth and land, warrior women, all this
fits well with certain aspects of celtic myth. But the Germanic aspects
of Orlanthi society certainly don't apply to the Esrolites.
>NB: in this theory, it could be that "Pharoah" is Belintar's Esrolite
>title, and the trolls, Heortlings etc. have a different name for him. As
>his people are mostly Esrolites and the architecture of the City of Wonders
>was once said to be Esrolian, this doesn't cause me any real trouble --
>except for having to work out what the Heortlanders call him. King of
>Kings? God-King? Who knows?
I like this theory. My suggestions for the Heortlending name would be
one out of Pendragon, Ard Ri, Bretwalda, High King, Holy King, or local
adaptions. The Shadow Plateau trolls might call him the Only New One.
>_____________
>Sam Phillips:
>> RE: Do you join Storm Bull at first initiation?
>Chatting with Steve Thomas, and we thought maybe the simple solution was
>that initiation into the god of your culture, people and religion (opposed
>to Cult) was free on reaching maturity. This gives an advantage to people
>who decide to go the way their culture points them. Generate any Sartarite
>character, and he'll become an initiate of Orlanth for no POW cost. Ditto
>Trolls and Kyger Litor, Praxians and Waha, etc.
>> Only Adults can do adult things - buy fags, drink beer, go with
>> Ulerians, join the moonies, become a beserk...
> ^^^^^^^
>NO! That's proof of feeblemindedness, which strips you of your adult
>rights. You do know that initiation into the Seven Mothers requires you to
>accept a permanent casting of several Madness runespells?
>(Greydog propaganda, given an Irrippi Ontor Truth Rating of 0: so what?)
>The rest of your discussion is good fun and probably right.
>____________
>David Cheng:
>> Most of the countryside of the Left Arm Islands probably just lacks
>> overall spiritual guidance.
>I've heard it theorised (by Jon Quaife among others) that the God Forgot
>people are a population of Brithini peasants -- just the Dronars/Dromals/
>whatever they're called are left. So whichever of them becomes leader for
>the duration of an emergency naturally becomes an "Elder". This would help
>explain why they have no inclination to do anything. It does, however, fly
>in the face of the various Brithini and Weird Mechanical Magic sources...
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 2181
>Subject: Gloranthan scripts; divine magic; temples; scenarios
>>PRHarmaty: I don't feel Stormspeech should be written. The
>> oral tradition thing.
>>Ekron: Sartarite can be a script. I just don't know about
>> Stormspeech. Sartarite is cool by me
>But why couldn't you write Stormspeech in Sartarite letters? Mongolian was
>originally written in Uighur. Lots of languages use the Roman script.
Anyone read Andre Norton's "Witch World" novels? Words of power spoken
create fiery (or whatever) letters or runes in the air. Each written
text is a licensed descration of minor versions of these.
>I always figured Glorantha has a lot more languages than scripts (writing
>systems). Most were probably spread by world-wide empires such as the
>Jrusteli. Which raises the question: is there written Tradetalk? It would
>seem appropriate for contracts on the one hand, but if it's a pidgin-type
>language, I wouldn't expect a written form. (I think in my campaign I once
>described it as being very pictographic.)
I've wrestled with Nick about the uses of Trade Talk in Aeolian
society, and we came to peace with something along this lines: If we
allow an earth parallel, it would be basest vulgar latin, maybe one
would be speaking in the trucations mediaeval monks used to make in
their copies. The real written form would be old Seshnegi, parallel to
high latin, which would be understood partly by someone able to read
Seshnegi script. Lots of space for small print clauses in ACI,
Ablativus Absolutus and similar constructions. With general literacy
being poor, one would take the document to a Lhankor Mhy (or other
truth cult) scribe anyway.
>Nick & Sandy:
>Which leads me to a comment Nick made about Gaumata's Vision being one of
>the better scenarios. Sorry Mike, but I don't agree -- it seems to be an
>example of a somewhat disturbing trend in RQ Renaissance scenarios which
>probably stems from Ken Rolston's excellent abilities as a GM.
>Recent scenarios are heavily geared towards a particular sort of
character.
[several example deleted]
>Some GMs (Ken is one) are masters of getting disparate characters
>motivated. I'm not. Some GMs can get their players to create new
>characters. My players really like playing continuing characters (how
>else can they ever gain their Rune?).
The old campaigners' lament.
>I'd like to see more stuff like the old Pavis/Big Rubble (anyone could
>venture in, and the Cradles scenario was for all non-Lunars). Or Griffin
>Mountain (suitable for natives or visitors).
The language problem you mentioned limit the visitors scenarios to
dungeon-style roleplaying - a problem I've recently encountered with my
traveller campaign. And getting visitors involved without getting down
on them heavily can be the most tricky part of such scenarios.
>A good scenario must be one I can not only admire, but use. That means I
>have to be able to use it in my campaign. I happen to run in 1611 -- don't
>tie your scenario to a particular year (a regrettable flaw in RQ Adventures
>fanzine). Ideally, a scenario wouldn't even be tied to a locale (e.g.
>feuding Orlanthi clans could be anywhere), though this is obviously
>excusable in a scenario that's part of a background book. Most importantly,
>keep the scenario open to the widest range of PCs. Writing a scenario for
>Orlanthi may seem like a safe bet, but it's not (I've never run an
>Orlanthi, and the only one in my campaign is a Windchild).
Well, some of the most interesting scenarios for RQ I've seen were tied
to certain political events. Since the official material covers 1617
(RQ2 Pavis, Borderlands) to 1621, I think there's nothing wrong with
doing so. If one wants to play in a different time, one has to make up
contemporary scenarios of their own.
A good way to get a scenario started is to tie ONE character into the
setup, who draws in the rest. Of course the scenario mustn't become
pointless with the death/incapacitation of this character. Tricky.
Anyone out there with the patent solve-it-all intro to a scenario?
>---------------------
Lewis Jardine in X-RQ-ID: 2183
>Subject: Storm Kahns in Sartar
>In response to Nick's question about big bullies in Sartar (BTW Good Luck).
>Storm Kahns could be called any of the following (take your pick):
> Sturm Fuhrer (Have I spelt that right Joerg et al.)
Would be Führer, Fuehrer, or F"uhrer in LATeXese. Sophisticated,
civilized languages have umlaut characters, you know, only pidgin
lingos like tradetalk or 7-bit ASCII English don't.
#
# #
### #
# #
#
(mega-smily)
>OK so the first one is a horribly mixed metaphor and in bad taste too.
Right. I don't like it. Really can't see the fascist connection there.
> Storm Leader
is the same, only consistent in language.
> Storm Front
Actually quite nice!
> Berserker
> (remember that only rune lords can regularly go berserk.)
Still the regular initiates are called that. And with limited
reusability of divine magic for initiates, they'd cheerfully live up to
that name.
> Anyway *I'll be bock* when you have had a chance to recover from my
>awful puns (and your accountantcy exams Nick).
We feel pun-ished. (Old nethacker speaking.)
Anyway, why not continue the tradition of pars-pro-toto Rune Lord names
(Swords of Humakt, Talons of Cacodemon, Jaws of Krarsht...) and call
them Horns of Urox/Storm Bull/the Bull?
>---------------------
Geoff Gunner in X-RQ-ID: 2185
>Subject: Religion and D.I.
>Joerg says something about worshippers being pragmatists, only praying for what
>they can get out of it. Really ? How do you explain that the majority of
>human cultures have religion deeply ingrained in them ? And that's without any
>definite evidence (ducks in case any fundamentalists are reading).
I only wanted to point at some Earth example of munchkinism. And these
guys were _certain_ that there were a lot of God guys around, one of
those they chose as their (temporary?) patron.
They'd usually only switch within one pantheon and its associates, if
they wanted to keep their kings (who held their claim by divine
ancestry, and who'd revere a loser ancestor?).
>Humans, and presumably all the other intelligent races in Glorantha, have a
>deep-seated need to beleive in a higher being/s. Why isn't important. The
>person will choose, if they have the luxury of choice, the deity that fits
>their mental attitude.
I wanted to point out that the individual in earthly parallels had the
choice between deities. Also the mediaeval Catholic Saint worshipper
had the choice of saints to ask a miracle (aka DI) from.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: Bye bye box; matrix tattoos
Message-ID: <199311060343.AA26903@radiomail.net>
Date: 6 Nov 93 03:43:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2216
>From: kenrolston@aol.com
>The boxed RQ3 edition is being replaced by a paperback with the same
>contents, but cheaper, so you won't be able to get the old boxed edition.
Good news! (I think the price is close to what it was nearly 10 years ago,
but a lower price might attract more people. And it's not like you can put
anything in the box anyway, since Avalon-Hill insists on using a box size
that's more convenient for them than the consumer.)
Here's an unrelated question: magical tattoos. If you tattoo a matrix in
your skin, is it usable by anyone else? I gave a bad guy a matrix, and my
players wanted to skin him once they'd defeated him. I decided that it
probably wouldn't work, but the RQ4 answer was that it would. Wyrm's
Footnotes 14 implies otherwise. I suppose greedy players could try drying
or embalming an arm or head...not sure I'd allow that either.
David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net
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From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: Cans of Worms
Message-ID: <9311060451.AA05410@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 6 Nov 93 04:51:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2217
me, without thinking enough:
>> > The Sun Domers are almost universally worshippers of Yelmalio, not Yelm.
Nick:
>> Subject: Slaves of the Sun Dome
>> Date: 30 Oct 93 15:03:51 GMT
>> X-RQ-ID: 2150
>>
>> Interesting question: given the "Elmal schism", is this a valid comment?
>> I *think* the point of the Sun Dome Temple is that they live their life of
>> discipline in emulation of Yelmalio, the dutiful son of Yelm. That is, they
>> take a "perfect soldier" / "perfect son" as their role model, but their
>> main object of worship would be the same as his: Yelm, the Fiery Father.
Given the previous discussion on worshipping a pantheon ( Orlanth = all of
the Orlanthi pantheon, Ernalda = Voria, Ernalda, Asrelia, etc. ) it may be
a moot point. This is just another example of how that idea works in these
settings.
>> > Building Wall Battle, anyone?
>>
>> What, you want details?
Hey, a guy can ask, can't he?
>> Just as long as you don't believe anyone who tells
>> you it was made from poisonous, spiny coral... A giant Esrolite earthwork,
>> gnome-raised, is all you need (and far more sensible).
Is that what that old Different Worlds drawing was supposed to be? CORAL?
Yeeech. What was Greg on?
>> Too easy? Me, I find it irresistable. You have a model for the hard-working
>> peasantry (clean-shaven men in kilts: "effeminate" by Barbarian standards),
>> ...
>> Importing the Red Emperor's cult as a new Husband God -- Caesar &
>> Cleopatra. No, this is all too good to pass up.
Hmmm. Still seems to easy.
Whether egyptian-esque or not, how about square shields? (shaped like an
earth rune)
>> Try calling 'em "Esrolites", too. Helps with that "ancient" feel. Perhaps
>> they use -im rather than -i for plurals: "Humaktim, Orlanthim," etc. Hours
>> of fun (and maybe OK by David Cheng, too).
Sounds too much like Israelites, and I'd have to wonder if Yassir was a
Troll. Like the -im for plurals, or "people of" forms, though. Maybe it
should be Esrolim?
>> I know the "official" line is that Esrolia is "just like Sartar", only with
>> women in charge. But that's boring. Everywhere ends up looking more or less
That line also makes little sense. It just doesn't follow that a woman-
oriented, Ernalda-centric culture is going to look and feel like a male-
centered Orlanthi culture. ( NOTE: I am describing who is the major figure
in the pantheon, not necessarily which pantheon ).
I also agree, it should be much more interesting than just a Southern Sartar.
>> From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
>> Subject: Costume
>> X-RQ-ID: 2151
>>
>> I agree, the Pharoah is an outsider, not necessarily an Esrolian.
Hmm, a question just came to mind. Who named the Pharoah "the Pharoah"?
>> Hey, I lost touch with Sean. He's still in the Austin area? Tell him I said
>> "hi!"
Last I saw him was playing Credo with Stafford at Origins in Ft. Worth,
but as far as I know, he's still working in the capitol, and is living in
the same house, filled with drums and martial arts goodies and all of the
rest of Sean-ness, here in Austin. Next time he nearly runs me down on his
bike, while in the campus area, I'll try to remember to pass it on.
BTW: Regarding Credo, does anyone know when it's to come out?
>> From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
>> Subject: Disclaimer
>> X-RQ-ID: 2167
>>
>> John Medway: Doesn't Ral Partha make a line of Egyptian Ancients?
Yep, in 25mm figures. I've pretty much decided to follow the local trend,
and do 15mm figures, though. I'd probably not have the time to sculpt/cast/
paint enough of the 25s, anyway.
It's also easier to get 15mm historicals, and I'll be able to afford the
plane fare too!
Still need to finish that sable sculpture.
Anybody got an O.B. for Moonbroth? ( Kidding! )
Well, kind-of kidding. Did the Sables line up with the Praxians, then turn
on them, or did they join the Lunar lines before the battle commenced?
>> From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
>> Subject: AOL Discussion: Prax and American West
>> X-RQ-ID: 2168
>>
>> America On-line RuneQuest Chat
>> June 9, 1993
>> Logged by Loren Miller (Ekron)
>> Part 1: Praxians and American Indians
Gray == Oliver Jovanovic
Ekron == Loren Miller
Koribouros == ?
>> Gray: One point you bring up is interesting actually -
>> some people see these as Indians (the model favored
>> by Peterson) others as Arabic desert nomads,
>> dressed in long robes...
I don't remember ever seeing a picture, nor hearing a description of a
Praxian who wore long robes. The picture in Foes shows a motley assortment,
with the Altecamelus-rider, looking physically like a Mongol, but in light
dress. The rest could be anything.
One thing that was wrong about that picture, and the Zebra-rider in the
genertela book was the lack of clothing. In hot, dry climates you want some
real covering, though not necessarily heavy robes. Oh, and that Zebra-rider
hat-headress-thing: Form over function. (Real useful in a sunny locale,
whatcha think?)
>> Koribouros: There are a lot of still-extant tribes out there
>> who ride very odd beasts, though.
Other than the major tribes, and Unicorn, Zebra & Bolo Lizard, what else is
out there? Besides, what really characterizes "very odd beasts"?
>> Koribouros: Besides, isn't the holy country a mostly farming
>> area? Not neccesarrily a good place for herds.
Unless they intend to wipe out the locals.
>> IrishSpy: Prax strikes me more as the American Southwest
>> P Michaels: Specifically, Prax is mostly chapparel,filled with
>> stands of woody shrub thickets 1 to 4 meters high.
>> Gray: Even the Sahara and Gobi have human inhabitants,
>> nevertheless. Right, I think the American SW is a
>> better model. Prax in particular is considered
>> paradise by the animal nomads.
>> PRHarmaty: SW U.S. is too harsh.
Depends on which part of the SouthWest you consider. There are regions
within the SW which are not full dessert. The grass is blasted brown by
the sun, but there's something there on which to graze. Still a "desert"
with respect to rainfall and sparsenes of vegetation.
Some regions could have the steep-sided buttes and mesas, and nothing but
dirt and rock. But Prax, and the better parts of the Wastes, could look
like Texas. (Still makes it "The Wastes" IMHO, but then again, I'm from
where there is such a thing as rain.)
>> Gray: I think you might look at what tribes inhabit Prax
>> more than the Wastes and model those more after
>> American Indians, and the Waste dwellers more after
>> bedouins and Mongols. With some crossover...
But the two groups trade-off, both on a seasonal cycle, and whenever the
balance of shifts in the tribal alliances.
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From: ghoyle@smashland.nelsonville.oh.us (Guy Hoyle)
Subject: RQ Digest
Message-ID:
Date: 6 Nov 93 04:31:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2218
Please sign me up for the RQ Digest immediately! Thanks!
--Guy Hoyle
aka Mulborth
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